Phlox Pyros

I was not lecturing before, simply making a statement.

You just did the same thing I did and didn't even realize it. What in the world is SOP? Can I have something to explain that?

Oh, nevermind, after just a little bit of research, I think it must be either "Standard Operating Procedure" or "Standard Of Proof". Probably the former, correct?

The number of posts, obviously, has nothing to do with what you know and what you do not know.

Roger Pearse

Let's stay on topic here, and ignore derails.

There must be a serious amount on info around in ancient texts on the Trojan War. Does anyone recall expressions of scepticism about it?

The Plutarch is interesting, as indicating that the ancients had a clear idea of the concept of the horizon of history, before when only poets' ideas existed.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

One of the best books on this is Paul Veyne's "Did the Greeks believe in their myths ? (or via: amazon.co.uk)"

To grossly oversimplify Veyne argues that educated people in the Ancient World were aware that large parts of the Iliad and Odyssey were not literally true but they were reluctant to regard their legends as sheer fiction, preferring to see them as hyped up imaginative retellings of real events.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse

Thank you -- this is interesting. It would also fit in with the approach that Eusebius of Caesarea takes towards Apollonius of Tyana in Contra Hieroclem and his general position that Greek deities were originally men.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

DramaQ

From TATIAN'S ADDRESS TO THE GREEKS Chapter 21 here.

countjulian

What are you talking about? Plato most certainly did not believe Homer or Hesiod to be true. In the Republic, he suggests that legends such as Hera being battered by Zeus and Hepaestius intervening and getting cast down are absurd, and goes so far as to say that new myths should be invented for the ideal state. Likewise, we see Socrates questioning traditional piety in Euthrypo, and in Phaedo he argues for reincarnation as oppossed to the Hades of the Odyssey (of course, I tend to view this as more Platonic than Socratic...). Just because Socrates makes mention of (perphaps) talking with Achilles in the afterlife doesn't mean he believed in the Epics.

andrewcriddle

It is quite possible to believe in a historical Helen Achilles Hector etc doing more or less what the Iliad has them doing without taking literally Homer's anthropomorphic Gods.

Andrew Criddle

countjulian

Fully aware, that's what I believe. It's just that the poster I quoted claimed Plato was a true believer of Homer, which is not a statement that could be made by any one familiar with Plato.

Chris Weimer

Please reread both my statement and Plato. Yes, Socrates did consider Homer to be a real person, and yes he did think the epics really happened. Whether he thought the actions attributed to the gods are poetical invention or history is besides the point.