mountainman

What credible evidence would these eyewitless authorities cite?

Robert Tulip

My opinion on this topic is as follows, as a speculative hypothesis.

The Therapeuts of Alexandria invented Jesus Christ by adding the Jewish scriptures to the existing Greco-Egyptian cult of Serapis following the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. The Therapeuts were a holy priesthood of Serapis, existing since the days of Alexander, with roots in earlier Greek and Egyptian religions.

The influx of Jewish refugees into Egypt post Titus created a need to synthesis their messianic mosaic midrash and the Serapian mythology. The result was the anointed saviour, Christ Jesus, an overlay of Jewish myth onto Serapis.

As Emperor Hadrian allegedly said early in the second century, all Christian bishops were astrologers who worshiped Serapis. I think he was talking about Therapeuts. The Therapeuts have a strong association with early Gnosticism, seen also in the inclusion of the Asclepius in the Corpus Hermeticum. But the later heresiologists of orthodoxy were assiduous in rooting out and destroying evidence of their pagan origins.

The Jews had a strong esoteric cosmic tradition, seen in the Asclepian image of the snake on the pole at Numbers that was used as the model for both the Mithraic Aion and the cross of Jesus Christ, and also in the zodiac imagery used by the High Priest of the temple at Zion.

stephan huller

Have you ever met any Jews in your life? Have you even a semblance of passing knowledge of the Jewish religion? How do we get from a Law-abiding culture to one which embraces טָמֵא? It isn't that there might be a grain of truth in this monstrous conception you are envisioning. There is perhaps a grain of truth in any false statement. But I am interested in hearing why the destruction of the temple would lead to the abandonment of Jewish law. Where in the Pentateuch do you see a requirement to have a temple?

mountainman

The source for most of the above seems to be the "Historia Augusta".

This can be a worry.

But I appreciate your speculative opinion anyway.





Who used the snake on a pole first?

Moses or the cult of Asclepius?

Robert Tulip

that is only the source for the Hadrian comment - not the rest, which is my own speculation. And I am sure you agree the Historia is a fourth century forgery Great question! I particularly like the Aion, with six coils seemingly representing the six ages from Leo to Pisces. Perhaps the snake pole image goes back to the time when the dragon was at the north celestial pole. I discuss this in this essay on the Gnostic Peratae and elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadjet "Another early depiction of Wadjet is as a cobra entwined around a papyrus stem, beginning in the Predynastic era (prior to 3100 B.C.) and it is thought to be the first image that shows a snake entwined around a staff symbol. This is a sacred image that appeared repeatedly in the later images and myths of cultures surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, called the caduceus, which may have had separate origins."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus says "...symbols similar to the classical caduceus sometimes appeared on Mesopotamian cylinder seals. He suggested the symbol originated some time between 3000 and 4000 BCE, and that it might have been the source of the Greek caduceus.[10] A.L. Frothingham ... suggested that the prototype of Hermes was an "Oriental deity of Babylonian extraction" represented in his earliest form as a snake god. From this perspective, the caduceus was originally representative of Hermes himself, in his early form as the Underworld god Ningishzida, "messenger" of the "Earth Mother".... In Egyptian iconography, the Djed pillar is depicted as containing a snake in a frieze of the Dendera Temple complex."

And here is a snake pole beauty: djed with uraeus http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/Gems/Sca...0X/07.x11m.jpg

Robert Tulip

Yes I do have Jewish friends Stephan, and I am not quite sure why you would ask questions of this tone.I do not read Hebrew, but looking up טָמֵא I find it means defilement. Are you implying that Jewish racism towards Egypt was so extreme that the Jews would not have dreamt of participating in any syncretic defilement? That seems highly implausible in view of the range of debts of the Jesus Myth to Egyptian culture. The context of the “Common Era” was that everyone was together in a newly common environment, and that formerly isolated religions had to talk to each other to produce a modus vivendi. So while some Jews might hold their nose at the prospect of treating animal-worshippers as human beings, the Serapis cult had already Greekified the Egyptian Gods by removing the bestial component. Perhaps mixing it with Zeus is less “defiling” than with Thoth for those who are particular about their purity laws?'Monstrous' is a loaded term to use here. Serapis is hardly Frankenstein. I cannot imagine why you would see the overlay of Jewish religion on an invented pagan God Serapis to be an unlikely candidate for the source of the Christ Myth. There was an exodus from Israel to Egypt after 70 AD, no? I presented the idea that Christ built upon Serapis as a speculative hypothesis. You are fast to jump to the conclusion it is simply false.The temple in Jerusalem was central to the practice of Jewish law. Without the temple, and cast adrift on the wide diasporic sea, the Jews had to come to grips with the fact that the Romans had smashed their culture because the Romans saw Judaism as obnoxious. It is not beyond belief that some Jews would develop a measure of self-hatred, imagining they had brought their national fate upon themselves through their obstinacy, and seeing the synthesis of their religion with those of Egypt and Greece as a moral path. Hence these Jews joined the Therapeuts of the Serapis cult in Alexandria to cook up Jesus Christ as Lord and God.I am not sure about the Torah, but I have certainly heard it argued that Jews saw and see Jerusalem as uniquely special as a place for the revelation of God. That is part of Zionism. Would having one of the biggest wars of ancient days waged against them by Rome have produced a more or less syncretic attitude among the Jews?

Sheshbazzar

It is quite amazing the number of Torah Commandments that are directly concerned with The Temple, and of course cannot be properly observed or kept or done without that Temple to DO them in.
Jews can continue pray about it, but there is little that they can DO about it unless they can rebuild The Temple. They know it, Christianity knows it, Islam knows it.
Wonder how long.

Duvduv

The Torah does not explicitly say a thing about Jerusalem as we know. All it says with reference to the places for the sacrifices and services is that it is to be "bamakom asher yivchar" ("in the place where He shall choose") as recorded in the Torah several times.

The service system did not begin in Jerusalem, but depended on a prophetic revelation for it to have been in the Sanctuary locations after the entry into Canaan: a) Gilgal (14 years); b) Shilo (369 years); c) Nov (13 years) and d) Givon (43 years), and finally in Jerusalem (410 years).

Those who worshiped at Gerizim did not have the word "yivchar" (yud-bet-chet-resh) in the imperfective form, but "bachar" with the yud dropped, being in the past tense.

Sheshbazzar

Ah. So Israel ought to be content and happy to build The Third Temple and resume all required mitzvot just anywhere on earth?
Tell you what. Nice guy that I am, I'll even buy and give you a piece of land if you will build the Scripturally prophesied Third Temple upon it.

Think you can persude otherwise?

Duvduv

Shesh, are you asking a prescriptive question or a question of Jewish theology about the Third Temple? Of course Jerusalem is mentioned in Kings etc. because that is where Judaism says that God desired the location of the Temple to be built by Solomon.

If your question is theological, then I can tell you that according to Judaism the Third Temple will be built upon the arrival of the Messiah. Maybe I missed something in your posting.