enoch007

I have read of speculation that YAWEH (the never named one) was originally the War God of the Isrealites and eventually pushed all other dieties aside with the famous saying "I am a jealous god". So, in other words, don't mess with YWHW or you will be on the short end of a catastrophe. War gods don't take names, they were the nuclear weopons of the classical religions.

Dave Reed

For the sake of discussion, I've pulled up an example of
something which could be construed as what you have stated.

2SAM 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned
against the Lord. And Nathan said unto
David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin;
thou shalt not die.
2SAM 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast
given great occasion to the enemies of the
Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is
born unto thee shall surely die.

When you categorize someone as "this or that", it always
means "prone" to this type of behavior/action. Calling
God a killer because you find a few instances where He
could be involved is silly. We've all had some unusual
moments, that we'd probably rather forget, but I doubt
that we define ourselves by these rare occurances, and
we should give all others, including God the benefit of
the doubt. I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where
for absolutely no reason at all, God strikes someone down.
The above scripture is typical, with a given reason for
the death, and we don't necessarily in principle agree with
babies, or anyone else dying. You'll also note that Nathan
never says that anyone, including God, is responsible for
the death, but only that it shall surely die.

This is quite a stretch of the imagination. Show the
verse(s). Allowing, is not necessarily supporting.

Another stretch, with no verse support.

While your at it you could also mention that He allows
people to ridicule His Word, make Him out to be something
He's not, and curse Him. Then come back the next day and
repeat the same pattern, while continuing to live on.
He sounds pretty patient to me.

greyline

Uh, Dave, are you having us on?

Fayzal Mahamed

Either patience or it could be that God has grown old and lost all his "destructive, genocidal powers".

It could be also that God has died unable to cast any more "destruction and genocide."

Or finally it could be that God never existed and that all we have are stories of man's mythology.

There will be no prizes offered in guessing where my sentiments lie!

Fayzal.

greyline

Why does this happen to Christians?

Last weekend I asked a Christian why the bible, which proclaims all manner of things to be either right or wrong, doesn't tell us it's wrong to own another human being as property. In fact, the bible is quite clear through the Old and New Testaments that slavery is normal and acceptable. How can that intelligent and kindly man tell me in all sincerity that the institution of slavery is A-OK with God? How can my Christian sister, a devoted mother of five young children, tell me God is fine with smashing babies' heads on rocks? And now a Christian here (if he's not pulling our leg) tells us it's "silly" to call a murderer a murderer - God has killed thousands of innocents but the poor sod is simply "'prone' to this type of behavior".

Christians know as well as I do that it's wrong to kill children because their parents were bad, or to kill babies in battle, or to own and use another human being as a slave. But their moral decency flies out the window when it comes to God. Not only does he get a free pass, but they worship this abomination and desire to spend joyful eternity with him in full knowledge that some of their perfectly decent loved ones and neighbors are roasting in hell.

Why would someone choose to accept the ancient ramblings of superstitious tribal leaders, claiming to speak for a whimsical bloodthirsty deity, at the expense of his or her basic sense of humanity?

TomboyMom

Well, that's a pretty mild instance of God's evil actions. Here's just one of dozens of more typical instances:

That's God speaking there. So, when committing genocide, be sure not to leave out those babies! Here's another:
Show no mercy! Don't indulge your human tendency to compassion! Stab those little girls to death! There are dozens of passages along these lines, and dozens more boasting of the successful genocidal campaigns of the Israelites as commanded and assisted by their God.

Yeah, a little murder here and there is no big deal, as long as you don't make a habit of it. After all, God's not perfect. Actually, the verses I gave are typical, and if you don't bore easily I can give you dozens more like them, in which God commands or goes on murderous rampages, taking particular care to kill ALL the babies. So now, what did those babies do again to deserve being stabbed to death?

This is quite a stretch of the imagination. Show the
verse(s). Allowing, is not necessarily supporting.

Have you actually read the Bible? btw, later in the same chapter 32 (AFAIK) of these virgins end up going to the Lord. What do you suppose He wanted virgins for?

Another stretch, with no verse support.

I don't know, maybe we just thought that when God said he creates evil, it meant that He creates evil? :huh:

Dave Reed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I wasn't aware of this particular verse. One thing
you'll notice is the present tense. Since evil already
existed before this passage, I doubt that this
refers to original evil, darkness, etc. I'm not going
to get into the original Hebrew word, but that
might be interesting.

Queen of Swords

I can't find any reason in Exodus 4:24 for why the biblical god is trying to kill Moses.

I'm just curious - if this god isn't responsible for the child's death, then how did it die? Was it a preemie? Did it have congenital abnormalities that meant it would die without this god having to do anything to expedite the process?

Gwen

Really?
Do you know what Passover is remembering?
Does the name "Isaac" ring a bell?

Well, I don't know, when God specifically tells the Israelites to kill all the men, all the babies, and all the women who have lain with a man but keep the virgins for themselves, I think it's pretty clear he's going way beyond "allowing".

O.K. If I kill all the firstborn children in an entire country because I'm pissed that its leader did exactly what I made him do, you'll give me the benefit of the doubt. Nice to know.

TomboyMom

Yes, it has been my general experience that Christians are usually not familiar with their own Bible. Although, like most atheists here at IIDB, I am, I do not read Hebrew, Koine Greek or Aramaic, so I have to make do with translations. I take the present tense to be a general usage, describing God's constant actions, not as in "I am creating some evil right now," but as "Creating evil is something I do," or even "I'm the one who creates evil."

So, we have now established that God creates evil.
We have also shown you that He commands genocide, infanticide, and rape. Would you like a few dozen more passages along those veins, because I can give them to you.

Maybe next time you debate atheists about what the Bible says, you'll be more careful.

You may even want to consider the possibility that the reason we don't believe it is that we have read it. Something to think about.