Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adonael · 08-16-2008, 07:29 PM

I'm curious: what's the likelihood that Jesus would be tried by the Sanhedrin if it were not believed by Jesus' contemporaries that he (Jesus) was a Jew?

aa5874 · 08-16-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adonael

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

A total baseless post. You have not supported your assertions with facts or credible information.

Deal with the OP.

What is your position, was Jesus a Jew or not, if the NT is assumed historical? And please provide the evidence or information you have to support your position.

I don't have time to waste.

To be clear: the question I asked is not to debate whether Jesus was a Jew; and thus there is no task for me or any person here to argue or present evidence that Jesus was a Jew. In sharp contrast, I am looking for positive reasons to believe that Jesus was not a Jew. And, FYI, a lack of evidence that Jesus was a Jew is not evidence that Jesus was not a Jew.

aa5874,

I have found your contributions within this thread to be annoyingly intrusive rather than even the slightest bit useful.

That is what I expected you to say. And I can say the same about you, but that is just a waste of time.

Please, deal with the OP.

I assumed the NT was historical, as suggested firmly by the moderator, and showed you that Jesus was not a Jew, that he was a God living on earth, using passages from the NT.

You find that annoyingly intrusive! Do you realise this a public forum?

And by the way, a lack of evidence that Jesus was not a Jew is not evidence that Jesus was a Jew.

aa5874 · 08-16-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

OF course it is extremely relevant.

If you can show that only those who were racial Jews could be religious Jews, then you would have a point. Otherwise, you don't. Jesus, as depicted in the Gospels, is a Jew, in spite of whether he is the half son of a ghost, and in spite of inconsistent Genealogies.

The OP clearly asked if there were reasons to believe that Jesus was not a Jew.

I have established that Jesus was not a Jew, he was a God living on earth assuming that the NT was historical.

It is factual that circumcision does not make a person a Jew. And Jesus, in the gospel of John, according to the author, said or implied he was the Son of God.

Adonael · 08-16-2008, 08:26 PM

i wonder if you could show jesus' divine self-understanding within Mark?

aa5874 · 08-16-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adonael

I'm curious: what's the likelihood that Jesus would be tried by the Sanhedrin if it were not believed by Jesus' contemporaries that he (Jesus) was a Jew?

If the NT is assumed historical, then it was an established fact that people THOUGHT Jesus was a Jew.

They thought a Jew was crucified.

But, they were wrong, they crucified the SON of GOD.

Matthew 16.13-20

Quote:

When Jesus came into the coasts of Casarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I am?

And they said, Some say thou art John the Baptist, some, Elias, and others Jeremias or one of the prophets.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said unto him, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou. Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven........

Then charged he his disciples that they tell NO MAN he was Jesus the Christ.

And John 17.1

Quote:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

If the NT is assumed historical, only Peter and the disciples, realized Jesus was the Son of the living God, and Jesus himself forbade them to tell anyone.

andrewcriddle · 08-17-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Judah see Hebrews 7:14

Andrew Criddle

Hebrews 7.14

Now where is that evidence? Do you have a genealogy for Jesus of Juda.

The Pharisees, if gMatthew is assumed historical, thought Jesus was the son of David and Jesus challenged them. Jesus asked how is he the son of David and no-one could answer him.

So I ask you, "How is Jesus from the tribe of Juda"?

Without going into the interpretation of the Jesus' teaching about Psalm 110, I will just point out that tribe of Judah is a much wider category than sons of David

Andrew Criddle

Adonael · 08-17-2008, 07:32 AM

Are there good reasons to believe that the Markan Jesus' self- understanding was divine and not Jewish?

Doug Shaver · 08-17-2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What is your position, was Jesus a Jew or not, if the NT is assumed historical?

I have stated my position. In this thread. As you have habitually done since the day you got here, you keep posting as if nobody else has ever posted anything. You are so obsessed with your own ideas that you consistently ignore everybody else's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

And please provide the evidence or information you have to support your position.

Others posting to this thread have presented the evidence. You would have noticed it if you could pay attention to somebody's posts besides your own.

Doug Shaver · 08-17-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adonael

aa5874,

I have found your contributions within this thread to be annoyingly intrusive rather than even the slightest bit useful.

Might as well get used to it. His contributions to every thread he's ever posted in have been like that.

storytime · 08-17-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

What purpose would Paul have had in giving a false hope to Gentiles knowing that they could never be equal to Jews?

Paul's position was that the authentic Israel was the spiritual Israel, "the circumcision of the heart," which was open to anyone.

Yes, but faith did not invalidate works of the law - circumcision. Both circumcision of flesh and heart was required by the OT God. Jesus didn't change anything and Peter is the first apostle to offer salvation to Gentiles(the uncircumcised and lawless people). I see a conspiracy building from Peter and then Paul. And the only conclusion I can reason at this time is their attempt to protect Jerusalem[Jews] by incorporating Gentiles into a love doctrine for Jews. And they did this through giving a false hope of salvation through Jesus even though Jesus did not have authority to offer anything to "dogs"(the uncircumcised and lawless idol worshipers - Gentiles).

Whoever wrote this magical story with it's Jewish characters and "god in the flesh" hero Jesus, may not have had access to actual Jewish scriptures. Or, the actual Jewish writings were intended to be secret. But, it's as though here-say (tall tales sitting around a campfire) ended up parceled out to be later picked-over pieces. And with this in mind, I can speculate on my conspiracy theory as to WHY a couple of Jews decided to take bits and pieces of their theology to teach the ignorant and uneducated Gentiles that they were "saved" from death to life.

My apologies for drifting a bit off the main topic.

As to evidence that Jesus was a Jew is like providing evidence that I'm an American, by birth and location. Jesus being the son of David in the flesh shows his lineage through Benjamin. His being a rabbi, anointed, sent by God, shows his lineage in Levi and covenanted at the beginning of Israel at Sinai. To which the tribe of Judah received nothing concerning the priesthood as Paul said. When Jesus told the Pharisees that "before Abraham was,I am", the extended meaning should have read "before Abraham was I am a priest after the order of Melchizedek", King of Salem - "without father and mother" indicating without father Jacob and mother Israel. (as Israel is portrayed female and mother of tribes). Paul gives Jesus his hiarchy and authority through Melchizedec, the Jerusalem "above" in hirachy/authority and established not in circumcision, at the beginning of that priesthood later to be incorporated in Moses and Aaron where the Covenant was established with Levi forever. These priests as the mouth of God was God to the people. The word that came to them and of which they spoke was God in the flesh. Thus Jesus was god/man. And only the Levites could hold claim to this position.

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08-16-2008, 07:29 PM	#71
Adonael Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Canada Posts: 1,252	I'm curious: what's the likelihood that Jesus would be tried by the Sanhedrin if it were not believed by Jesus' contemporaries that he (Jesus) was a Jew?

08-16-2008, 08:26 PM	#74
Adonael Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Canada Posts: 1,252	i wonder if you could show jesus' divine self-understanding within Mark?

08-17-2008, 07:32 AM	#77
Adonael Banned Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Canada Posts: 1,252	Are there good reasons to believe that the Markan Jesus' self- understanding was divine and not Jewish?

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