mountainman

I see.

Sheshbazzar

Been married 45 years to one wife. Have no need of girlfriends. (I see you have removed the nasty. I'll leave my reply)

Philo was betraying Hebrew culture and the Hebrew religion with his Hellenism and employment of these pagan Greek terms.

This 'Philo' is an unknown. He doesn't write like a conscientious Hebrew, he writes like a pagan Greek.
I don't trust anything that he (whoever the hell he really may have been) wrote.

stephan huller

Real scholars don't use terms like 'betray.' The common claim of these Judaizing Platonists was that Plato stole from Moses. If you like Jewish culture so much, and think it is divine, please explain why the food is so bad.

stephan huller

But of course Pete secretly thinks that 'New Testament Greek' trumps all other considerations because Eusebius is the reference for both Philo and the New Testament and remember Eusebius was part of the team that forged the gospels which in turn 'determine' the real meaning of therapeuo. god.

Sheshbazzar

'Betray'. A traitor to ones nation and its distinctive culture is a traitor, smoother words will not change the fact.

Sure Plato stole from Moshe. ...and then polluted The words of Torah with words drawn from the darkness of pagan philosophies and from the doctrines of pagan demons.

The children of this world have long feasted upon this paganized polluted bread, that is why they are sick and delirious.

Toto

Sorry, that should have been p. 21. You may be able to read it on the google books preview.

Here are a few pertinent passages, that indicate that there is no such consensus that the NHC were produced and bound at the Pachomius monastery.

tanya

No, friend. You err here.

Hippocrates lived several centuries before Philo, and he used the term, Therapeutae, in connection with two Egyptian mythical figures, associated with healing. He gave no reference to any Hebrew text or figure.

I did not find the OP confused. I did find your replies to my post 395 disjointed. Let's see what you wrote, and how they express confusion:

Let us turn back to post 392, and read again Toto's comments, and my reply:
There then follows, in post 395, several lines of text, translated into English, from "Philo's" VC, making four points:

a. b. c. d. Based upon these quotes, I then asked the forum, and you, Toto, in particular, whether or not ancient Jews prayed at sunrise and sunset daily, based upon some Hebrew scripture--> I expressed skepticism that this would have been the case, and offered a quote from Apastamba, who lived two centuries before Hippocrates, in support of precisely such a prescription, as written doctrine. I pointed, in post 395, to the fact that Egypt was ruled, at the time of Hippocrates, (i.e. a century before Alexander), by the Persians, who undoubtedly imported their Zoroastrian tradition, into Egypt. I further inquired, and have yet to receive a reply from anyone, whether or not Jews, of that era, maintained a "sacred shrine" in their homes?

yes. There are reasons.

a. I was following your elaboration of her name sans doctorate title;
b. I was treating her, in a friendly way, as if she were a member of this community;
c. I treated her as I do Bart Ehrman, or Richard Price, or Earl Doherty, i.e. genuine scholars, whose texts, while undoubtedly stimulating, noteworthy, and in some circumstances, truly remarkable accomplishments, nevertheless offer positions, with which I find fault. That doesn't mean that those authors are absolutely wrong. It may well be that I am in error, not them. I write their names, casually, as Ehrman, Price, or Doherty, without using their full name or title, not in disrespect, but because of the collegial spirit on the forum.

Joan's name was written without her family name, in the same way that I would write "Jay", or "stephan" without using Raskin or Huller, because they are well known figures, not as a sign of disrespect. Both Jay and Stephan are published scholars. I refer to them by first name, not because I intend to demean their accomplishments, but because I imagine that they are sitting here, adjacent to the computer, as I am "speaking" to them. In Dr. Taylor's case, I accentuated that feeling of familiarity, perhaps unduly intimate, by writing, deliberately, "splainin" to offer a mild rebuke to her, for her analysis, which I view as careless, and sloppy, and which, in my opinion, (see the quotes, above) is disharmonious with Philo's text.

Really? Did you read VC? Did you understand my paragraph above?

This is a genuine blunder.

The most fervent Jew, is going to disagree with you here. A scholar of Hebrew language, linugistics, and history, (as was Philo) does not earn disqualification from writing on subjects unrelated to that narrow focus.

Philo wrote on Hercules, for example. He did not simply mention in passing, the demigod, Philo explained Hercules' (mythical) contribution to humanity. Philo elaborated Hercules' role in human society. Philo was clearly very familiar with classical Greek pagan traditions.

OK. I apologize if I have made things difficult for you. I perceive neither clearly, nor with opacity, how the quotes from VC, or from Apastamba, or from Dr. Taylor, which I furnished, have been taken out of context. Can you provide a single illustration for any one of these, to show how my quotes misrepresent the authorial intention?

I know you appreciate, Shesh, that I reply here, not as a scholar or someone with your own sophisticated knowledge, experience and skill set, but as a complete amateur, who appreciates your input to the forum and who reads your submissions, daily, in toto, with delight.

I deny that you know either,

a. what the Egyptian embalmers, whose activities were described by this bit of Hebrew text, were thinking, at the time the text was composed (did you intend to suggest that the embalmers themselves dried their hands, and then wrote the text?), nor

b. whether or not, in the embalmers' Egyptian minds, they were treating Jacob's illnesses, as "healers", rather than as "priests" (i.e. "nuns", for they may have been females!!), as they prepared Jacob's voyage to the underworld....

shucks...

I am interested to learn your idea of which Mesopotamian figures contributed to Moshe's education? Hammurabi perhaps? Perhaps not, eh, for he lived half a millenium before Moses. Archaeological studies of the Euphrates, near Mari, are fascinating. A huge metropolis, a Sumerian fortress town, 5000 years ago. Today nothing. I am pretty sure, Moshe too, "stole" something, along the way, as we all do, going through life, lifting a bit of this, and a bit of that, incorporating different ideas, into our own psyche....

Clivedurdle

Thanks! Brilliant photos there.

I wonder if we are looking here at a complex that is larger than the Temple in Jerusalem, and a possible competition between religions. Judaism does have a theme that it is the true way that was expressed for example in Maccabees.

Philo is a more modern Jew, using ideas like Logos, later nicked by the author of John.

"Paganism" another word that is a later propaganda term - is Julian's worshippers of the true gods better? - that may be confusing the picture that Judaism was seen as one religion amongst many, but given a bit of special esteem because of its age, which might not actually be the case, it may only date back to Cyrus.

And yes the internet did exist then - but it was much slower than dial up, not electronically based, but using ships, horses, camels etc, with a tendency for server farms to get destroyed, as at Herculaneum and Alexandria!

aa5874

Philo was not unknown and in fact did NOT betray Hebrew culture. A contemporary of Philo did identify him as the brother of Alexander, a governor and that he represented the Jews before Caius the Emperor of Rome.

Josephus and Justin did mention Philo.

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18.8Hortatory Address to the Greeks

Toto

Let's stop here and clear this up.

"Therapeutae" is a generic term. It is used for a variety of worshipers and attendants to gods, who often performed "healings." Philo did not invent it. He did use it for attendants to the Jewish Temple.

Agree? Disagree? Why or why not?