Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Enda80 · 10-01-2004, 08:00 AM

It occured to me that while we can call German citizens who fought in World War II "National Socialists" or "Nazis", Italian citizens in World War II "Fascists", we have no helpful alternative term for the Japanese.

A character can say "Oh no, the Nazis!", but what else could they say when fighting Japanese citizens; "Oh no, the Shinto Imperialists!".

(Sidebar: an interesting point is that while Germans did at one point have a non-Nazi past-they worshipped Odin, not Yahweh, in the time of Hermann the Cheruscann, I don't know of the Japanese ever having worshipped any deity other than Amaterasu et al.)

Megatron · 10-01-2004, 08:39 AM

Off to ~E~ we go!

-ZA, M&PC

chapka · 10-01-2004, 11:17 AM

Part of the reason might be that the Nazi era in fact represented a fairly discrete chunk of German history. That is, in Germany, the rise to power of the Nazis roughly corresponded with the dismantling of the Weimar system and only shortly preceded the beginning of hostilities. The end of the war also marked the end of the Nazi government; Hitler was dead, and his aides were dead, fled, or on trial.

In Japan, Hirohito had been emperor since 1926, and his dynasty was well-established. In addition, the events between Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima represent a well-defined beginning and end of hostilities only from an American perspective. Militarism in Japan had been growing steadily since the late 19th century, breaking out for example in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 and the invasion of China in 1931. Similarly, after the war, Hirohito was allowed to continue governing, albeit only as a figurehead.

I'm simply not sure you can take a slice of time out of the Japanese imperial government between the Meiji Restoration and V-J day 1945 and make a clear case that it was distinct from any other. I suspect the reason you want to at all is because of the same Western bias which tries to fit the war in the Pacific into the same neat timeline as the war in Europe.

Monkeybot · 10-02-2004, 05:25 AM

Actually, I thought it was relatively common to refer to Japanese Imperialists or Imperial Japan. Not as common as "Nazi," perhaps... but I think it's more accurate than "Shinto Imperialists," because Shinto was only one component of extreme Japanese nationalism.

Gurdur · 10-02-2004, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enda80

....while Germans did at one point have a non-Nazi past-they worshipped Odin, not Yahweh, in the time of Hermann the Cheruscann,

No-one quite knows just who the Germans then worshipped -- it was a whole range of possible deities.

Quote:

I don't know of the Japanese ever having worshipped any deity other than Amaterasu et al.)

The japanese worship/ed a huge range, from ancestor veneration to the various Buddhist & quasi-Buddhist deities, down to the various gods/goddesses of Shnto, down to fox and cat spirits, various other syncretic forms imported from China, and a Christian church in hiding, quite strong around the Nagasaki area.
Trying to shoe-horn the rather lax and easy-going Japanese attitude into rigorous models of theism does not exactly work.

cloggy · 10-02-2004, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapka

Part of the reason might be that the Nazi era in fact represented a fairly discrete chunk of German history. That is, in Germany, the rise to power of the Nazis roughly corresponded with the dismantling of the Weimar system and only shortly preceded the beginning of hostilities. The end of the war also marked the end of the Nazi government; Hitler was dead, and his aides were dead, fled, or on trial.

In Japan, Hirohito had been emperor since 1926, and his dynasty was well-established. In addition, the events between Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima represent a well-defined beginning and end of hostilities only from an American perspective. Militarism in Japan had been growing steadily since the late 19th century, breaking out for example in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 and the invasion of China in 1931. Similarly, after the war, Hirohito was allowed to continue governing, albeit only as a figurehead.

I'm simply not sure you can take a slice of time out of the Japanese imperial government between the Meiji Restoration and V-J day 1945 and make a clear case that it was distinct from any other. I suspect the reason you want to at all is because of the same Western bias which tries to fit the war in the Pacific into the same neat timeline as the war in Europe.

Good point. Though as a European I've always seen WW2 as a two-component war.

cloggy · 10-02-2004, 06:01 AM

Anyway, don't feel to bad to call the Japanese the Japanese. Many of them have no problem referring to foreigners with the unflatering term "gajin".

Lugubert · 10-02-2004, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloggy

Many of them have no problem referring to foreigners with the unflatering term "gajin".

What's so unflattering about calling a person a 'foreigner'? The Chinese write it the same way, pronouncing it 'wairen', and it still means no more than 'foreign person'. There are other examples in Chinese, like the almost proverbial 'foreign devil', but today, it is no more offensive than the USAmerican 'shit' - like when the US girl said "Shit, I stepped in the poopoo!"

I think it all depends on the way you use a word. Once upon a time, the Swedish word corresponding to 'gay person' was considered awfully derogarory. Today, it has been appropriated and accepted by the gay community and is used more or less as a badge of honour, or at least as an appropriate designation of group identity.

mongrel · 10-02-2004, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anders

What's so unflattering about calling a person a 'foreigner'? The Chinese write it the same way, pronouncing it 'wairen', and it still means no more than 'foreign person'.

I recall once reading a claim that the Japanese word for "foreigner" also meant "barbarian". How accurate that claim was, I don't know.

Iezja · 10-02-2004, 07:29 AM

We should call them "ethnocentric". Lose face, become a hermit. Kill someone, blame it on a foreigner.

I used to really like Japanese culture. Now I think it's a goddamn farce.
I have a rant on Shintoism here. Some have a massive bug up their asses about it. Yah. I attacked a culture that needs to get the fuck off the island. And stop worshipping their dead. There was a "shinto" Inquisition...when the Yamato clan killed lots of Ainu. :angry:

10-01-2004, 08:00 AM	#1
Enda80 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 190	World War II question; could we call them something other than "the Japanese"? It occured to me that while we can call German citizens who fought in World War II "National Socialists" or "Nazis", Italian citizens in World War II "Fascists", we have no helpful alternative term for the Japanese. A character can say "Oh no, the Nazis!", but what else could they say when fighting Japanese citizens; "Oh no, the Shinto Imperialists!". (Sidebar: an interesting point is that while Germans did at one point have a non-Nazi past-they worshipped Odin, not Yahweh, in the time of Hermann the Cheruscann, I don't know of the Japanese ever having worshipped any deity other than Amaterasu et al.)

10-01-2004, 08:39 AM	#2
Megatron Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: New York Posts: 5,441	Mod Note Off to ~E~ we go! -ZA, M&PC

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10-01-2004, 11:17 AM	#3
chapka Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 6,290	Part of the reason might be that the Nazi era in fact represented a fairly discrete chunk of German history. That is, in Germany, the rise to power of the Nazis roughly corresponded with the dismantling of the Weimar system and only shortly preceded the beginning of hostilities. The end of the war also marked the end of the Nazi government; Hitler was dead, and his aides were dead, fled, or on trial. In Japan, Hirohito had been emperor since 1926, and his dynasty was well-established. In addition, the events between Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima represent a well-defined beginning and end of hostilities only from an American perspective. Militarism in Japan had been growing steadily since the late 19th century, breaking out for example in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 and the invasion of China in 1931. Similarly, after the war, Hirohito was allowed to continue governing, albeit only as a figurehead. I'm simply not sure you can take a slice of time out of the Japanese imperial government between the Meiji Restoration and V-J day 1945 and make a clear case that it was distinct from any other. I suspect the reason you want to at all is because of the same Western bias which tries to fit the war in the Pacific into the same neat timeline as the war in Europe.

10-02-2004, 05:25 AM	#4
Monkeybot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,102	Actually, I thought it was relatively common to refer to Japanese Imperialists or Imperial Japan. Not as common as "Nazi," perhaps... but I think it's more accurate than "Shinto Imperialists," because Shinto was only one component of extreme Japanese nationalism.

10-02-2004, 06:01 AM	#7
cloggy Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Holland Posts: 487	Anyway, don't feel to bad to call the Japanese the Japanese. Many of them have no problem referring to foreigners with the unflatering term "gajin".

10-02-2004, 07:29 AM	#10
Iezja Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Moorhead, MN Posts: 101	We should call them "ethnocentric". Lose face, become a hermit. Kill someone, blame it on a foreigner. I used to really like Japanese culture. Now I think it's a goddamn farce. I have a rant on Shintoism here. Some have a massive bug up their asses about it. Yah. I attacked a culture that needs to get the fuck off the island. And stop worshipping their dead. There was a "shinto" Inquisition...when the Yamato clan killed lots of Ainu. :angry:

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