Elijah

It's not mosses' law or any man's law Jesus is referring to. It's the Law that the universe is built on.

Watching a documentary last night about Einstein, it looked like he spent the latter part of his life trying futilely to put it into mathematical form.

Jesus also saw the universe in a more abstract form, but didn’t have the language to help illustrate it.

Jesus couldn’t speak about higher math to a bunch of peasants. They used things like Word and Law instead which has physical properties like can be said, heard and written down, but also has abstract symbolic properties.

noah

My understanding of Matt 5:17-19 is that Jesus was referring to the Torah. THat would have been the only law most the Jews understood and known at that time.

Wallener

I fully respect your right to read the text as you feel appropriate. That said, the plain reading is clear: The Law is Mosaic Law. A second temple Jew listening to another second temple Jew talk of "the law" would have understood it to mean Torah.

The relationship between the Golden Rule and 613 Mitzvot cannot one of replacement since they have different purposes.

Elijah

That's cool.

I fully respect your right to read the text plainly just like I fully respect the fundies right to do the same. Some people by their nature can only see the surface level of anything.

Wallener

We have more common ground than I suspect you think. The Law was never the goal, it was the method to get to the Golden Rule utopia.

And, since it only applies to Jews, it makes perfect sense to me that Biblical Jesus - talking to Jews - reaffirms the validity of The Law as The Path while Biblical Paul - generally talking to the dispersed and/or outright Gentiles - correctly points out you can get to the destination using an alternate map.

From that perspective, there is arguably no contradiction between BP an BJ on this issue, at least, even allowing for BJ's strict acceptance of The Law (which I maintain the text has him both saying and meaning - for that audience).

Elijah

Exactly the same maybe. I believe all men are the same just on different parts of their journey.

Not sure what you mean by "The Law was never the goal." Am I supposed to read that as the Torah was never the goal or are using the word Law in a broader sense?

Is the golden rule even mentioned in the Old Testament?

Wallener

Yes indeed, right there in The Law:

Elijah

Thanks for the passage in Wallener. :notworthy

I still say Jesus saw two types of Laws. It's a tricky word. Like God Love and Freedom.

Johann_Kaspar

The gospels aim at saving Israel, when the epistles aim at saving individuals. The gospels introduced the idea that for Israel to become independant (the king and the kingdom...) many followers will be killed, and as a reward will receive eternal life... In the epistles, eternal life is granted for having "faith", "only".
Later the idea of eternal life will have much success with muslims.

Accordingly, in the gospels there is a full display of hatred of the authorities (those who are an obstacle to the kingdom), while in the epistles everyone must obey the authorities (of course only after the project of the kingdom failed, that is after 888 auc).

chokmah

This thread reminds me of what I just finished reading: Hyam Maccoby's The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity. His premise is that Paul invented Christianity through an amalgamation of Gnostic, mystery cult, and Jewish beliefs. Since I am beginning to agree with this consideration: I would have to assert that Paul's beliefs and writings contradict Jesus' words and actions.