Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 12-29-2011, 05:18 PM

How do you KNOW. that they are folk stories? Have you studied them? And what makes you so sure that your chronology is correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I honestly suggest that you are mistakenly comparing sources 2000 years old providing background to the Torah events with those that came up a mere 150 years ago out of the blue.

The 2nd century AD Seder Olam Rabbah and Rabbinical sources place the Exodus at 2448 AM (or 1313 BC).
These Midrashic discussions and the resulting commentaries date to a time some 1200 years after the alleged events, and are the product of a people whom had been conquered and exiled repeatedly.
These Rabbinical discussions and 'explanations' are filled with imaginative folk-religion material and creative 'Midrashed' situations that are nowhere to be found within the actual TaNaKa texts.

Just because a 'source' is 2000 years old, it is no indication that source is any accurate accounting of events from 3000+ years ago, or 1200 years in their past.

Sheshbazzar · 12-29-2011, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I honestly suggest that you are mistakenly comparing sources 2000 years old providing background to the Torah events with those that came up a mere 150 years ago out of the blue.

The 2nd century AD Seder Olam Rabbah and Rabbinical sources place the Exodus at 2448 AM (or 1313 BC).
These Midrashic discussions and the resulting commentaries date to a time some 1200 years after the alleged events, and are the product of a people whom had been conquered and exiled repeatedly.
These Rabbinical discussions and 'explanations' are filled with imaginative folk-religion material and creative 'Midrashed' situations that are nowhere to be found within the actual TaNaKa texts.

Just because a 'source' is 2000 years old, it is no indication that source is any accurate accounting of events from 3000+ years ago, or 1200 years in their past.

How do you KNOW. that they are folk stories? Have you studied them? And what makes you so sure that your chronology is correct?

I can only evaluate these 'stories' and 'explaplanations' on the basis of the credibility of their claims, and their conformity to the known laws of physics, physiology, medical science, and to externally attested and documented facts of real history.
By the light those tools, I cannot but conclude that these writings consist primarily of folk-legends and entertaining but contrived fictions.
I have examined enough of this Midrashic 'stuff' to know that they are as fruit-loopy as a Jewish version of 'A Thousand and One Arabian Nights'.

If you don't like the chronological dates which I provided here, you are most certainly welcome to consult with your favorite Jewish sources and provide us with whatever other dates they might come up with that are more to your personal liking.
If you do not, then you really have nothing there to be crabbing about.

Doug Shaver · 12-30-2011, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

I take it you have rejected "They were irrelevant to the narrative" as a credible answer. Why is that?

Well Doug, I don't really know how to answer that but such a tremendous engineering and construction project lasting over a period of several centuries just doesn't seem too qualify for irrelevance.

Notice the phrase "to the narrative." I put it in there for a reason.

But I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't know how to answer the question.

Duvduv · 12-30-2011, 02:22 AM

There is no way you can prove your hypothesis that they are just fables or that the chronology is wrong. Secular arrogance relies on its faith despite the impossibility of empirical certainty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

How do you KNOW. that they are folk stories? Have you studied them? And what makes you so sure that your chronology is correct?

I can only evaluate these 'stories' and 'explaplanations' on the basis of the credibility of their claims, and their conformity to the known laws of physics, physiology, medical science, and to externally attested and documented facts of real history.
By the light those tools, I cannot but conclude that these writings consist primarily of folk-legends and entertaining but contrived fictions.
I have examined enough of this Midrashic 'stuff' to know that they are as fruit-loopy as a Jewish version of 'A Thousand and One Arabian Nights'.

If you don't like the chronological dates which I provided here, you are most certainly welcome to consult with your favorite Jewish sources and provide us with whatever other dates they might come up with that are more to your personal liking.
If you do not, then you really have nothing there to be crabbing about.

Vorkosigan · 12-30-2011, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is no way you can prove your hypothesis that they are just fables or that the chronology is wrong. Secular arrogance relies on its faith despite the impossibility of empirical certainty.

Preach it, man! Imagine coming to provisional conclusions open to revision by new evidence. Just so f*cking arrogant.

The Admiral · 12-30-2011, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

I take it you have rejected "They were irrelevant to the narrative" as a credible answer. Why is that?

Well Doug, I don't really know how to answer that but such a tremendous engineering and construction project lasting over a period of several centuries just doesn't seem too qualify for irrelevance.

Notice the phrase "to the narrative." I put it in there for a reason.

But I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't know how to answer the question.

Doug

It sounds as though you are saying that I must be a pretty ignorant person. If so, your are wasting your breath. I already know that.

Dave

Doug Shaver · 12-31-2011, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Notice the phrase "to the narrative." I put it in there for a reason.

But I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't know how to answer the question.

Doug

It sounds as though you are saying that I must be a pretty ignorant person.

I would never attempt to reach such a general conclusion from anyone's inability to answer just one question as specific as that one.

Roger Pearse · 12-31-2011, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Notice the phrase "to the narrative." I put it in there for a reason.

But I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't know how to answer the question.

It sounds as though you are saying that I must be a pretty ignorant person. If so, your are wasting your breath. I already know that.

A very civilised reply -- and evidently far too modest -- to a rather nasty comment. We are all ignorant of all sorts of things.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

The Admiral · 12-31-2011, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Notice the phrase "to the narrative." I put it in there for a reason.

But I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't know how to answer the question.

It sounds as though you are saying that I must be a pretty ignorant person. If so, your are wasting your breath. I already know that.

A very civilised reply -- and evidently far too modest -- to a rather nasty comment. We are all ignorant of all sorts of things.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger;

Thank you.

I didn't really take the comment as nasty. Doug sounds like a pretty good fellow too me, as does most everybody on this forum. Especially the ones who use their real names.

Dave Nelson

Sheshbazzar · 01-01-2012, 01:27 PM

I believe that references to Pyramids, Triangles, and to Circles were deliberately and consciously avoided by the writers of the Bible.
The Cube and rectilinear cubic constructions were the symbols of the Divine, and of perfection ('foursquare', 'upright', 'level', 'equal') in the Hebrew religions symbolisms and sacred 'constructions' and visions of the Eternal.
The triangle (pyramids) and circle were endemic to the goyim religions as being the long recognized symbols of these 'other gods' provision and Eternal nature, and thus something to be as carefully avoided by Hebrews as the speaking of their names.
This is why huge sections of the texts are taken up with careful descriptions of the measurements of rectilinear figures, both in the writings describing the physically existing 'patterns' of the Temple and its furnishings, and in those of 'visions' of hoped for or 'heavenly constructions' as seen in Exodus, Ezekiel, and Revelations.

01-01-2012, 01:27 PM	#30
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Pyramids I believe that references to Pyramids, Triangles, and to Circles were deliberately and consciously avoided by the writers of the Bible. The Cube and rectilinear cubic constructions were the symbols of the Divine, and of perfection ('foursquare', 'upright', 'level', 'equal') in the Hebrew religions symbolisms and sacred 'constructions' and visions of the Eternal. The triangle (pyramids) and circle were endemic to the goyim religions as being the long recognized symbols of these 'other gods' provision and Eternal nature, and thus something to be as carefully avoided by Hebrews as the speaking of their names. This is why huge sections of the texts are taken up with careful descriptions of the measurements of rectilinear figures, both in the writings describing the physically existing 'patterns' of the Temple and its furnishings, and in those of 'visions' of hoped for or 'heavenly constructions' as seen in Exodus, Ezekiel, and Revelations.

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