Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 12:47 PM

So the idea is clearly that the Egyptians have four statues of the sun, which mimic the four seasons. It starts as a child, becomes a youth, then a man, then an old man.

This does sound like a possible candidate, if the significance of the 'child' at the winter solstice has been misunderstood by someone in the urge to link it to Jesus.

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 12:51 PM

Few people have read Macrobius Saturnalia, since it isn't online, even tho a perfectly good translation exists (and is in copyright).

But book 2 is a Roman joke book. I don't know if I've shared this one before, but, hey, why not?

Servilia was Caesar's mistress, but he was also thought to be seeing her daughter Tertia (lit. "third").

At the sales of property confiscated from his enemies, Servilia bought a lot of property very cheaply.

Cicero joked, "You'll understand the good price that Servilia got, if you know that Caesar was knocking off a third".

Macrobius is a writer of the late 4th century, note.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 12:57 PM

Ah, the linked thread that Andrew gives actually goes into this already.

Amaleq13 · 04-04-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Um. After which, surely, one need pay no mind to anything the authors of that 'study' choose to say?

Why? Is there a flaw in the study that the journal Nature did not catch? Or do we just get to reject any results that disagree with our personal beliefs?

I'm surprised by the results and they are contrary to my expectations but that is certainly insufficient to warrant rejection, IMO. The only concern I would have is the apparently small sample size.

Quote:

We all know how Wikipedia is compiled; by readers, not by experts.

No experts ever contribute? I don't think that is true. But pointing out the differences in compilation is irrelevant to and does nothing to dispute the findings. The results exist despite the differences.

Quote:

Don't we all know of examples of crass bias and falsehood, especially on matters of political or religious controversy? (Just try looking at some of the stuff on Macedonia!)

Yes and I believe you'll find I explicitly mentioned this.

Quote:

The contributors to EB at least were held to some standards. But Wikipedia is, of course, rather more accessible.

Wikipedia has standards as well but, unlike EB, it is the result of an ongoing process. The results suggest that a static body of privately researched material is about as reliable as a body of information that is subject to continual challenge and update by the public. Rejecting it as unreliable is simply contrary to the results of the study. If you want results that comport with your preferences, do your own study and hope it supports your view.

Amaleq13 · 04-04-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Few people have read Macrobius Saturnalia, since it isn't online, even tho a perfectly good translation exists (and is in copyright).

But book 2 is a Roman joke book. I don't know if I've shared this one before, but, hey, why not?

Servilia was Caesar's mistress, but he was also thought to be seeing her daughter Tertia (lit. "third").

At the sales of property confiscated from his enemies, Servilia bought a lot of property very cheaply.

Cicero joked, "You'll understand the good price that Servilia got, if you know that Caesar was knocking off a third".

Macrobius is a writer of the late 4th century, note.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

You have to appreciate a joke that can stand such a true test of time.

Roger Pearse · 04-04-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Um. After which, surely, one need pay no mind to anything the authors of that 'study' choose to say?

Why? (reiteration snipped)

If you prefer to trust a collection of hearsay, of course that is entirely your right.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Gamera · 04-04-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I wrote they are not identical stories but there are common themes. Something has gone wrong with what I posted so I will repeat it.

http://www.writersstore.com/article.php?articles_id=30

Quote:

Classic Story Structure Begins with Plot
by Adam Sexton
What do we mean by Plot? Simply, plot is WHAT HAPPENS in a short story, novel, play or film. No more, no less. It isn't description or dialogue, and it certainly isn't theme. In the best stories, plot grows organically out of character, rather than being imposed from above. Specifically, plot is the result of choices made by characters in a story, especially the story's protagonist, or main character.

Even if action is not the most compelling feature of the story to you, the reader must always want to know -- actually NEED to know -- what happens next. Yes, plots are contrived, but that's what makes for art, not life. A theme -- your message or meaning -- is revealed through plot. For example, 'Money can't buy happiness' is just an empty threat, unless we observe a rich man who's miserable, as in George Eliot's 'Silas Marner.'

Renowned writer Anne Lamott ('Bird by Bird,' 'Operating Instructions') created a mnemonic device to help writers remember how to write plots that work:

Action
Background
Conflict
Development
End

These are real structures, found in all stories, plays, films etc. This isn't meaningless ikeaism as you seem to want to parrot.

Where do you get the idea I or other people are making direct parallels? I am pointing out structural features like in Judaism wilderness has a similar role to the Greek underworld, because Mark seems to like fish analogies he uses these instead of corn ones, although wine stories are there.

The magic is there, the death - although it has been sanitised as baptism, as has the cannibalism.

Why are you looking for direct parallels? This is jazz, riffs, people interpreting core human issues about life death universe, their relationships with the gods in terms of their cultures and histories.

The social construction of Jesus Christ is particularly fascinating, obviously using parts from a spare parts bin of older mythology, but bashed into almost unrecognisable shapes.

I think this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospels are narratives. And . . . ? So is Tacitus' Agricola and Sophocles' Oedipus.

Narrative is used in all kinds of contexts, both fictional and historical. To speak the obvious and conclude that the gospels are narratives doesn't realy explain anything that is at issue.

Clivedurdle · 04-05-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Oedipus (pronounced /ˈɛdəpəs/ in American English or /ˈiːdəpəs/ in British English; Greek: Οἰδίπους Oid�*pous meaning "swollen-footed") was a mythical Greek king of Thebes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus

Quote:

Gnaeus Julius Agricola (July 13, 40 - August 23, 93) was a Roman general responsible for much of the Roman conquest of Britain. His biography, the De vita et moribus Iulii Agricolae, was the first published work of his son-in-law, the historian Tacitus, and is the source for most of what is known about him.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Julius_Agricola

These are very different forms of narrative. Now which one is closer to the Jesus tales?:devil1:

Amaleq13 · 04-05-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

If you prefer to trust a collection of hearsay, of course that is entirely your right.

You either didn't read my posts or you didn't understand them because that silly straw man has quite clearly never been my position.

If you prefer to continue to hold a belief that has been contradicted by a particular study despite apparently lacking any valid reason to doubt it, of course you are free to do so. Interesting to see that this attitude is not restricted to your religious beliefs, though. Must be nice thinking it impossible for you to be wrong

DramaQ · 04-05-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

There is no serious purpose to my remarks; merely the image in my mind of a man with a wooden willy trying to get his wife pregnant.

I’m willing to add a

to the discussion: It seems to me that a “wooden willy” is the usual way to get a wife pregnant.

But honestly, If I’m willing to accept that Isis put Osiris back together again, I don’t know why I’d be all that amazed at that he could impregnate her with an oaken poker.

It’s the subsequent discussion that caught my eye though. And please let me see if I have this right: in order to get to story parallels you have to ignore the details and generalize so much that ANY parallels can be drawn. Is that it?

There’s no middle ground here?

Isn’t it possible to find SOME literary borrowing that doesn’t automatically mean story parallelism?

And yes, we can say there are universal themes that show up in all kinds of stories.

But does the existence of universal themes automatically preclude the existence of deliberate parallels?

I remember, in 1979, seeing a movie called “The Legend of the Golden Gun”. Barely two years after “Star Wars” and I watched a T.V. western that sure looked to me like a lot of literary borrowing had occurred.

Or maybe it was the expression of universal themes.

How do we know, short of an author saying “Yes, I fashioned this story after that story”?

What’s the criteria for proving that stories are parallel? Do the similar elements have to be intentional? What if ideas were “borrowed” subconsciously? How do we recognize them when they’ve been repackaged?

As my dad used to say “There’s nothing new under the sun”. But he may have borrowed that from somewhere.

DQ

04-04-2008, 12:51 PM	#52
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Few people have read Macrobius Saturnalia, since it isn't online, even tho a perfectly good translation exists (and is in copyright). But book 2 is a Roman joke book. I don't know if I've shared this one before, but, hey, why not? Servilia was Caesar's mistress, but he was also thought to be seeing her daughter Tertia (lit. "third"). At the sales of property confiscated from his enemies, Servilia bought a lot of property very cheaply. Cicero joked, "You'll understand the good price that Servilia got, if you know that Caesar was knocking off a third". Macrobius is a writer of the late 4th century, note. All the best, Roger Pearse

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04-04-2008, 12:47 PM	#51
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	So the idea is clearly that the Egyptians have four statues of the sun, which mimic the four seasons. It starts as a child, becomes a youth, then a man, then an old man. This does sound like a possible candidate, if the significance of the 'child' at the winter solstice has been misunderstood by someone in the urge to link it to Jesus.

04-04-2008, 12:57 PM	#53
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Ah, the linked thread that Andrew gives actually goes into this already.

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