stephan huller

Tertullian Against Marcion 4.2.4 - Now, of the authors whom we possess, Marcion seems to have singled out Luke for his mutilating process etc.

stephan huller

I just can't get over that the context of the statement in 4.36 implies that Tertullian was (a) writing in Latin (b) using a Latin text of a gospel either Marcion's or his own and (c) arguing that Marcion can't use 'this' (= Mark 10:17 // Lk 18:18 // cf. Mt 19:16) to prove that Jesus was denying that he was the god who gave the commandments. I don't see how any of this works with your suppositions. I appreciate your input.

stephan huller

Let me rephrase that. I think Marcion's gospel was Markan so your input is extremely valuable. I wouldn't have noticed that (because I am not as astute as you). That might speak to Tertullian (a) citing from Marcion's text or (b) citing from his own variant text (cf. the number of times he accuses Marcion of cutting things out of 'the gospel' = Luke which aren't in Luke). It is a very complicated question. Your suggestion that he isn't citing from Luke is quite valuable.

Jeffrey Gibson

But he's not arguing that here. He's arguing a point of theology. Moreover, he quotes from Matthew here as well -- cf "So then this also in the gospel remains valid, I am not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfil.".

Jeffrey

stephan huller

But he argues that Marcion cut this from the gospel - cf "I am not come to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfil." That one has puzzled scholars forever. It's one of many oddities to the text.

Jeffrey Gibson

What variant text is Tertullian quoting from? What is it a variant of?

And where here does Tertullian accuse Marcion of cutting things from Luke that aren't in Luke (if he ever really does).

Jeffrey

stephan huller

Adv Tert 4.7 - He is the subject of the prophecy, which shows that at the very outset of His ministry, He came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but rather to fulfil them; for Marcion has erased the passage as an interpolation

I say the original argument against Marcion which is used by Tertullian comes from a Diatessaron. That explains this and other 'mistakes.' There is more to this but I have to drive my wife downtown. Fun, fun, fun. I'd rather be talking here with you. Honest.

stephan huller

Since you have JSTOR this might be useful background http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101956271553 (based on his MA thesis)

I have a difficulty imagining that Marcion could be imagined to have a Latin gospel. As such - unless I am entirely stupid - I don't see how Tertullian develops this praeceptor = 'the god who gave the divine commands' argument as if Marcion had this in his gospel. I don't see how ἐπιστάτα could lend itself to these arguments. How can ἐπιστάτα be employed in the sense of 'one who gave commandments'? So I can't argue that Tertullian saw ἐπιστάτα in the Marcionite gospel. Either he (a) saw a Marcionite gospel in Latin with praeceptor and developed the arguments which appear on the page or (b) used his own Latin text against Marcion's interpretation. Are there any other possibilities?

Jeffrey Gibson

He does? Where is this accusation to be found? Is it that Marcion has cut it or just ignores it? Does he say he cut it from Luke's Gospel? And what scholars in particular has it puzzled? Please give me some scholarly references where I may find this puzzlement expressed.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

That tells us more about you than it does about Tertullian.

Who says, besides you, that it was so employed?

Who says he does?

Yes, especially since you are assuming (and not for the first time) what needs to be proven -- that praeceptum means "commandments". It doesn't. Please check your assumption against the data on this word (and on preaceptor) in the Oxford Latin Dictionary (p. 1422).

You are once again as bad as Pete in basing your exegesis of an ancient text on an English translation of it.

I have to wonder not only whether you ever go to the lexicons to see whether what you think a Greek or Latin word means is indeed what it means, but also whether you are capable of understanding what you'd find there if you did.

This is becoming a waste of time.


Jeffrey