Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-06-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

I agree completely. It is one of the stances of some Christian sects that he is all-powerful. My Hebrew is non-existant but Almighty (from "El-Shaddai" I believe) doesn't actually mean "all powerful" I don't think.

Almighty actually is a synonym for omnipotent.

SiliconWolf · 06-06-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

the same way i account for the popularity of the Jon Benet Ramsey twin that survived, Britney Spears.

Wow, you totally lost me there.

Matthew_Green · 06-06-2004, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

they didn't choose to know "evil", they chose to know both good and evil. they didn't know either one before the fruit incident: they were amoral in the strictest sense of the word: without even the ability to make moral choices.

sin isn't a state of being, it is an outcome. before the fruit they had neither sinned, nor acted "good".

Mind if I butt in? I think your argument here is interesting. I agree that if this story was true then the primal couple would've had to have been completely amoral and wouldn't be able to make moral choices. But do you regard the act of eating from the tree of moral knowledge to be a sinful act on their part? If not, then can you help me to understand Romans 5: 12-19. It seems that because of Adam's sin, death spread to the world. But if eating from the tree of moral knowledge wasn't the sin that Roman's author has in mind here, what was Adam's sin then?

Quote:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

Matthew

dado · 06-07-2004, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_the_Freethinker

But do you regard the act of eating from the tree of moral knowledge to be a sinful act on their part?

i regard it as a plot point: without Incident of the Fruit, Genesis would be a damn short book.

if the eating of fruit was anybody's sin, it was G-d's for not giving Adam and Eve the ability to understand the consequence of their actions. but it's a catch-22 - if they had understood consequences, then they wouldn't have needed to eat the fruit, so it would have been their sin, but one they couldn't have been tempted into because they already had the knowledge.

Quote:

If not, then can you help me to understand Romans 5: 12-19. It seems that because of Adam's sin, death spread to the world.

i'm not x'ian, as far as i'm concerned the very idea of original sin is nothing more than a form of self-flagellation.

Clivedurdle · 06-07-2004, 08:20 AM

The concept moral choice has been used. Is "moral" an unnecessary addition?

Assuming the logic of the story, Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A choice - they were making choices before eating this "fruit"!

The ability to choose is often linked to the concept of free will, but most animals, and as I understand it, bacteria, are now understood to make choices - it is as if choice were part of the definition of life!

Paul clearly links something Adam did to the concept of original sin, and invokes law!

What else did Adam do? Of course! Sex!

Demosthenes · 06-07-2004, 08:34 AM

I've wondered why God puts the tree of life in Eden in the first place. If he doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit then wouldn't it have made more sense to put the tree out of the reach of the grubby human hands. Instead God in essence was baiting the humans and shouldn't God have known what was going to happen? So an argument could be made that God deliberately planned for this to happen, the very first act of "lord works in mysterious ways".

dado · 06-07-2004, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demosthenes

If he doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit then wouldn't it have made more sense to put the tree out of the reach of the grubby human hands.

i have to defer to literary judgement: this is first and foremost a story, and putting the trees where. they couldn't be reached would make for a damn poor - not to mention short - story.

Demosthenes · 06-07-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

i have to defer to literary judgement: this is first and foremost a story, and putting the trees where. they couldn't be reached would make for a damn poor - not to mention short - story.

yeah but the problems start when a large number of people are taking that story as the literal truth.

Magus55 · 06-07-2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demosthenes

I've wondered why God puts the tree of life in Eden in the first place. If he doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit then wouldn't it have made more sense to put the tree out of the reach of the grubby human hands. Instead God in essence was baiting the humans and shouldn't God have known what was going to happen? So an argument could be made that God deliberately planned for this to happen, the very first act of "lord works in mysterious ways".

God puts the tree of life in Eden because it wasn't forbidden. He had every intention of letting them eat from it had they not disobeyed Him.

Demosthenes · 06-07-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

God puts the tree of life in Eden because it wasn't forbidden. He had every intention of letting them eat from it had they not disobeyed Him.

really? Where did he make that intention apparent? Although my recollection is limited, all I remember is that he specifically forbid Adam and Eve from partaking of the tree.

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06-07-2004, 08:20 AM	#25
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The concept moral choice has been used. Is "moral" an unnecessary addition? Assuming the logic of the story, Adam and Eve chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A choice - they were making choices before eating this "fruit"! The ability to choose is often linked to the concept of free will, but most animals, and as I understand it, bacteria, are now understood to make choices - it is as if choice were part of the definition of life! Paul clearly links something Adam did to the concept of original sin, and invokes law! What else did Adam do? Of course! Sex!

06-07-2004, 08:34 AM	#26
Demosthenes Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: a speck of dirt Posts: 2,510	I've wondered why God puts the tree of life in Eden in the first place. If he doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit then wouldn't it have made more sense to put the tree out of the reach of the grubby human hands. Instead God in essence was baiting the humans and shouldn't God have known what was going to happen? So an argument could be made that God deliberately planned for this to happen, the very first act of "lord works in mysterious ways".

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