TedM

Very interesting article Andrew. Thanks. Given time I'd like to read the rest of those articles too.

Ok aa, I have to give you credit for this one. Looks like there are significant problems with the wiki claim here.

A question comes to mind: what early christian figure has the most forged letters written in his name? And why? I would think the figure with the most would be much more likely to have been a real person due to the difficulty of successfully creating him without the forgers and readers of 'his' works realizing he never really existed.

Duvduv

The question of "Justin" is the same as the question of "Paul." Most people take the claims on "their" writings uncritically at face value based on the dogma of the church. Even a mythist has to pretty much assume that the epistles are unified letters expressing mythist ideas of a single writer as opposed to composites of philosophical or monotheistic sermons with insertions here and there relating to Christ, even of a historical one.

What proof is there that someone named Justin wrote an Apology to an emperor in the 2nd century? None. What proof is there that an emperor in the 2nd century received such an apology/appeal on behalf of the persecuted "christians"? None.

Yet the scenarios of both Justin and Paul are pretty much taken at face value, not unlike the narrative of Islamic history, a man named Muhammed who wrote a unified book called the Quran in the 7th century, etc. etc.

aa5874

Anyone who has actually examined writings attributed to Justin will quickly realize that the author heavily depended on Hebrew Scripture to develop his Christology.

Justin used the Pentateuch or a similar source and mentioned Moses OVER 120 times.

Justin made references by name to the book of the prophet Isaiah over 80 times, King David of Psalms over 50 times.

The Books of the Prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, Zephaniah, Zechariah and Malachi were all used by Justin Martyr.

The Christology of Justin is Totally Non-Pauline.

Not one word of the Pauline letters was used by Justin.

We know that Justin knew Nothing of Paul and the Pauline letters from "Dialogue with Trypho".

Trypho was supposedly a Jew and the Pauline writer was also claimed to be a Hebrew of Hewbrews, of the Tribe of Benjamin and a Pharisee who should have written Multiple letters to Churches "all over the Roman Empire.

The Pauline letters of the Jew Paul should have been in circulation directly WITHIN the Churches of the Roman Empire for at least 100 years before Justin.

Paul the Jew should have ALREADY written letters DIRECTLY to Multiple Churches c 50-60 CE and Justin Dialogued with Trypho c 150-160 CE.

The Jew called Paul claimed he had Revelations from the resurrected Jesus and that NO other Gospel should be preached.

Justin Martyr wrote about the Revelation of John--Not Paul the Jew.

Galatians 1:9 KJV Neither Justin nor Trpho the Jew argued about the Pauline writings from the Hebrew of Hebrews of the Tribe of Benjamin-the Pharisee.

Paul, the Pharisee claimed Jesus Christ Abolished Jewish Law since the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.

Justin and Trypho NEVER ARGUED about such a thing.

Justin and Trypho the Jew ARGUED about the Memoirs of the Apostles and Hebrew Scripture.

Listen to Trypho. He will tell us what he read.
[Dialogue with Trypho The Pauline letters were composed AFTER 150 CE or AFTER the Works attributed to Justin exactly as the recovered dated text suggest.

aa5874

The question in the OP is NOT about when the writings of Justin were composed but about the Contents.

Are there any DISTINCT references to the Pauline letters in the writings of Justin???

The Answer is NO.

It can be INFERRED that the Pauline letters were composed AFTER the writings of Justin when we take the abundance of evidence into consideration.

Duvduv

What proof is there that "Paul" wrote any of the epistles?
NONE.
What proof is there that they were sent out to the named communities?
NONE.
What proof is there that any communities ever received such letters?
NONE.
What proof is there that "Christian" communities even existed in those named places in the first or second centuries?
NONE.
What proof is there that the Apology attributed to someone named Justin was actually written in the 2nd century by that person?
NONE.
What proof is there that the Apology was ever received by the named emperor in the 2nd century?
NONE.
Parchment was really expensive in those days. Gosh, such long "books" written by some freelancer at the expense of so much parchment and scribes. WIthout imperial sponsorship? Or a rich uncle....Sounds unlikely.

aa5874

I told you to do some research for yourself.

Please be specific. Early Christians are from the 2nd century.

Perhaps Marcion, Irenaeus or Tertullian would qualify.

Marcion did NOT mutilate the Pauline writings, Irenaeus did NOT write "Against Heresies" and Tertullian did NOT write Against Marcion.

TedM

I've decided to drop this line of inquiry. I do not for a second think Paul was a made up figure in part because it would require a massive conspiracy, and the churches in Ephesus, Galatia, Corinth, etc.. would likely know if Paul was their original founder or not. I think the existence of works that were very early on considered forgeries in Paul's name attests more to his existence than his non-existence. But, I'm just voicing my opinion and not interested in discussing further.

Sheshbazzar

Let me get this straight aa, .....You really believe that Trypho the Jew was a real 2nd century person?

......and that this staged conversation, where 'Trypho' plays the part of a Christian foil and ass-kisser, really took place, verbatim, and as 'Justin' reports?

icardfacepalm: :hysterical:

Bet you'd believe every 'witnessing' tall tale as told by a Pentecostal preacher too.

aa5874

Come on TedM. Haven't you actually read the Jesus stories??

In gMatthew 1. 18, Is it NOT claimed that Mary was With Child of Holy Ghost and when the Holy Ghost Child was born he was called Jesus??

What a Massive Conspiracy!!! Everybody forgot Jesus was human even Paul.:constern01:

And in gLuke 1.26-35, the author continued the same Massive Conspiracy!!! The angel Gabriel told Mary exactly how the Ghost would Overshadow her.

Mary must have told Joseph her baby was Fathered by a Holy Ghost and he was DELIGHTED!!!.

How did these Massive conspiracies go completely unnoticed?? :banghead:

How did Joseph Smith get people to believe an Angel called Moroni spoke to him about copying the Golden Plates without any Massive conspiracy??

It is precisely because of the contents of the Pauline Epistles that we know they are historically bogus.

The Pauline Jesus had NO impact on any community in the Roman Empire in the 1st century based on Non-Apologetic sources.

Vespasian the Emperor of Rome was the Prophesied Messianic ruler in Hebrew Scripture and he healed the Blind with Spit and the Lame with a touch.

See Wars of the Jews 6.5.4, Suetonius Life of Vespasian by Suetonius, Histories 5 by Tacitus and Roman History by Cassuius Dio.

It is utterly historically bogus that Citizens of the Roman Empire Worshiped a DEAD JEW preached by Paul and that the DEAD JEW called Jesus was the Son of God.

There is NO evidence whatsoever that Roman Citizens worshiped a DEAD Jew as a God since 37-41 CE.

How utterly absurd that Jesus was crucified by the Romans and that Paul would almost immediately go "all over" the Roman Empire telling Roman Citizens that the JEW called Jesus was ALIVE and that he was GOD'S OWN SON.

The Pauline writings are a Pack of Lies.

Toto

This is circular. We have no evidence that these churches existed except for Paul's letters, which were not widely known until the second century, so you can't use them as evidence of Paul.