Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-28-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...
I think there would be resistance to the new Harry Potter religion. People might even say things like .....

There was time when Harry Potter was not.
Before Harry Potter was born He was not.
Harry Potter was made out of nothing existing.
Harry Potter is/was from another subsistence/substance.
Harry Potter is subject to alteration or change.

No, this is not what they would say, and you continue to misinterpret the model for these sayings.

They would say that Harry Potter never existed at all, and that the story of Harry Potter was the creation of an English commoner with no royal blood in her veins.

mountainman · 11-29-2010, 01:51 AM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

The analogous deification of Harry Potter in today's would would have to be intimately involved with the hostile monopolization of the newest high technology - the internet itself - for the purposes of flooding the media with the Good News of Harry. In the 4th century Roman Empire this new high technology was the codex.

I agree that certain people would follow Harry while others would rebel against Harry. However we should be aware that if the orthodox followers of the true canon of Harry Potter books/movies were to eventually become the dominant world religion, they would just as likely call the unbelievers "heretics".

Who would be left to complain about the categorisation?
There might be a black market for genuine Harry Potter relics.
Maybe we should get in on the ground floor?

Best wishes,

Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Mountainman,

You would have to convince Harry Potter fans that he actually existed for the religion to be taken seriously. Today, there is too much information available and people can easily fact check and find out he doesn't exist.

In Ancient Rome, people did not have such fact checking ability. Therefore it was a simple matter to get people to believe that Jesus existed. Offer them a meal and some wine and they had no reason not believe what they heard was true and they had no opportunity to find out differently, especially the 90% of the population which was illiterate.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks Davka,

Many people are looking forward to seeing the release of Harry Potter Seven in Australia.

Background.

Somewhat reformatted ....

The Historical Nature of Jesus Christ, Harry Potter and Nicaea

The question to be asked is what would happen if someone took over the world and created a compulsory religion based on the Harry Potter series of books. Would there be any resistance to the deification of Harry Potter as the official omnipresent and Universal God within the Hubble Limit?

I think there would be resistance to the new Harry Potter religion. People might even say things like .....

There was time when Harry Potter was not.
Before Harry Potter was born He was not.
Harry Potter was made out of nothing existing.
Harry Potter is/was from another subsistence/substance.
Harry Potter is subject to alteration or change.

mountainman · 11-29-2010, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

They would say that Harry Potter never existed at all .....

But what if the people knew that to openly disagree with the majesty of Harry Potters Public Relations Department, and say things like that, meant certain death? Do you think they would be so outpoken if there was a penalty for being a Harry Potter heretic? Would they not couch their opinions in a more indirect manner?

Toto · 11-29-2010, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

But what if the people knew that to openly disagree with the majesty of Harry Potters Public Relations Department, and say things like that, meant certain death? Do you think they would be so outpoken if there was a penalty for being a Harry Potter heretic? Would they not couch their opinions in a more indirect manner?

No. I know you are actually talking about Arius, but he was not saved by what you call an indirect criticism.

You keep building up these fantasies with no foundation. Look at how heresies have actually survived in history, People take to the hills, or publish underground newspapers, or set up servers outside the orthodox jurisdiction, or learn to talk in code.

mountainman · 11-29-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

No. I know you are actually talking about Arius, but he was not saved by what you call an indirect criticism.

Tell me about it.

Quote:

You keep building up these fantasies with no foundation.

But what's the foundation of Harry Potter ?

Quote:

Look at how heresies have actually survived in history,

Conversely, look at the religious heresies which have become extinct.
And the modus operandi of their extinction events.

Quote:

People take to the hills,

Mass movements to the deserts of Syria and Egypt - the fringes of the empire..

Quote:

or publish underground newspapers,

Many see the Nag Hammadi Codices as such.

Quote:

or set up servers outside the orthodox jurisdiction,

Like down the Silk Road in the case of Manichaeanism, but not in the empire of Harry Potter, where orthodox jurisdiction ruled with an iron fist and a sword and routine search and destroy missions for heretical books, that did not properly belong to the canon of Harry Potters Official Releases.

Quote:

or learn to talk in code.

Like Coptic and Syriac.

Toto · 03-18-2011, 11:33 AM

Neil Godfrey starts to review this book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Murphy

The most common approach, shared by both Christian and secular scholars, is that Jesus was a historical person upon which pagan tales and stories were naturally assimilated. I hope to demonstrate convincingly that this is a very weak position.

At the same time, I recognize that the idea of a historical Jesus Christ is so deeply ingrained in modern times that it is difficult to raise an alternative theory – one in which the savior figure of the gospels may not have been historical. To a large extent, this is due to the consequences of postmodernism and the dissolution of Objective Truth in favor of local narratives. The ‘failure’ of historical criticism, with the realization that each researcher projects their own meaning into the evidence, provides the illusion that any interpretation of history is possible, regardless of the corroborating evidence.

Unfortunately, this loose perception of history as immaterial and essentially meaningless has been applied to Christianity in order to safeguard its very insubstantial history from the voracious criticisms of rationalism. This, however, cannot be maintained, precisely because Christianity is a historical faith. More than any other religion, Christianity’s central tenets of faith are not supernatural, mystical creeds like “God is Love” or even “God Exists”. Christianity’s faith is fixed firmly upon its own historical foundation: that Jesus, the son of God, really and truly died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected.

Toto · 07-22-2011, 02:26 PM

Tim Callahan of the Skeptics Society reviews the book here. (Callahan is a historicist who is sympathetic to astrotheological interpretations of the gospels.)

Quote:

Whether or not one agrees with Murphy’s ultimate position, and whether or not one agrees with his arguments that Jesus was entirely (rather than mostly) mythic, Jesus Potter Harry Christ is well worth wading through, and wade through it one must, simply because of the sheer mass and volume of evidence the author provides. Make this a book whose pages you dog-ear for further reference and second readings.

mountainman · 07-24-2011, 07:33 PM

Accepting that Jesus was a fictional character is a step in the right direction as far as I see it. The next step is to ask who first widely published Harry and built his impressive array of Hogwart basilicas? Subsequent steps include answering questions like... Was there a major controversy over Harry's divinity at that time, and who were the major figures involved in the controversy? What does the evidence suggest? Did any other unauthorized Harry books appear at that time, and were they censored by the followers of the one true set of canonical Harry books?

Quote:

Even accepting that Jesus was as fictional a character as Harry Potter, we may ask how Harry can compare to Jesus. Murphy notes (pp. 417, 418):

Most importantly Harry Potter is popular in a way Jesus is not. Harry Potter’s movies have made billions, while Mel Gibson’s Passion of the Christ (2004) was disturbing, bloody, and ultimately unsatisfying, riddled with unresolved complexities in a system where the all powerful and all knowing God has to trick or deceive his creation, Satan. Harry’s popularity is crucial—he is the gospel of our time; the best selling story. Yes, he is a repacking of the Jesus Christ story, but one that eclipses that story completely. While we can sift through Harry and trace back to Jesus, why would we? Harry is a much more humane, in depth, vibrant character than the Jesus of the gospels, infinitely easier to identify with, champion and even love.

Tortie Cat · 07-25-2011, 03:32 AM

Come on people. Rowling wrote a wonderful series of novels (that get better as they progress). She is widely read herself and incorporates many themes from other works in her own writing. Many of these themes are adapted from folk tales and that is the point. These themes are ancient and universal. In so many tales, sagas, and epics we have the hero struggling valiantly against the odds/fates/gods, aided by various faithful companions, often with magical powers, or exceptional wisdom. Sometimes he is victorious, sometimes he isn't but he never gives up the struggle.

The NT has its own little heroic tale in Acts. This is an early form of novella. We are told about Paul the hero struggling against various vicissitudes and torments until at last he prevails and is victorious.

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07-25-2011, 03:32 AM	#19
Tortie Cat Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: On the mat, by the fireside! Posts: 79	Come on people. Rowling wrote a wonderful series of novels (that get better as they progress). She is widely read herself and incorporates many themes from other works in her own writing. Many of these themes are adapted from folk tales and that is the point. These themes are ancient and universal. In so many tales, sagas, and epics we have the hero struggling valiantly against the odds/fates/gods, aided by various faithful companions, often with magical powers, or exceptional wisdom. Sometimes he is victorious, sometimes he isn't but he never gives up the struggle. The NT has its own little heroic tale in Acts. This is an early form of novella. We are told about Paul the hero struggling against various vicissitudes and torments until at last he prevails and is victorious.

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