gstafleu

Meanwhile, we have in Ovid's Metamorphoses:

I think what we have here is Bacchus being called "twice born." If so, the first of the two times was from Semele, who was a woman, and hence Bacches was born from a woman according to Ovid.

Gerard Stafleu

jgibson000

Without checking Ovid to see, isn't this a description of the fact that Dionysus was re-assembled after the Titans had killed him?

Jeffrey

gstafleu

Interesting indeed. So we have this massive opinion that thinks that dithyrambos means two-doored, and we have Dodds. Now it wouldn't be the first time that massive opinion turns out to be wrong. Has Dodds' view won the scholarly day, or does the discussion go on?

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

I don't think so. As we are talking context, I feel free to offer a translation of the surrounding text:
It seems to me that Bacchus' cradle is remaining safe in the period just after he was born from Zeus and is in the care of the nymphs from Mount Nysa.

This, I think, is the corresponding Latin:
Gerard Stafleu

Toto

I checked Dodds on Amazon. He does say on p. 143 in regard to line 526 that (emphasis supplied, and forgive my failure to transcribe the diacritical marks)

and then goes on to say that this is not the correct etymology. But if Euripides and Plato thought it was, what does that matter? They apparently meant "twice born."

jgibson000

What massive opinion? The only ancient scholar who apparently gives this folk etymology is Plato.

Don't know if Dodds has won the day. But to my knowledge, no Classicist holds to the "two doors" idea. It's not even mentioned in Gantz who spends a few pages on the titles by which Dionysius was known.

Jeffrey

jgibson000

But since they are also aware of the "re-assembly" theme, and since Euripides clearly asserts that Dionysus was not "born" of Semele in 88-99, then the "twice born" epithet is not a reference to his origin from Semele.

And in any case, we are a long way from the sense that GENOMENON EK GUNAIKOS has in Galatians and in its usage (or the usage of cognate phrases) elsewhere in Hellenistic literature.

Jeffrey

Gamera

This embodies the whole problem with the mythicists' analysis.

You put "birth" in paranthesis, because it's simply not a birth. The mythicists basically take the narrative of Jesus, put the salient events in parentheses and then fill in the parentheses with analogous events from other myths. The analogy can be as far fetched as you want, because of the parentheses.

Using this "analysis" you can show that the Jesus "myth" derived from a Ikea catalog introduction, which I did on this very board.

In short, mythicists must always ignore details (Jesus had a virgin birth; Dionysos was born out of god's thigh) and use infinitely elastic categories (unusual birth) to construct an allege mythic source.

jakejonesiv

In Book 2 of Plato's Republic, we read of Adeimanto
telling Socrates about the beliefs of the Orphic
movement. It is quite hilarious. A good afterlife is
attained by offering sacrifices and participation in
the mysteries

The afterlife of the just is envisioned as a
synopsium in which the Saints lie around in an
everlasting wine induced stupor; an immortality of
drunkeness, crowned with garlands. This is the
ultimate reward of virtue! Now that is a
salvation cult. But the wicked, they get no wine but
punishements like carrying water in a sieve.

Moerangenes, one of the speakers in the dialogue of
Plutarch of Chaeronea, Quaestiones Convivles
(Table Talk), 4.6.1-2, equates the god of the Jews
(Adonai) with Dionysos (Adonis). He singles out the
Fast (sic) of Tabernacles, followed a few days later
by "procession of the Branches" or "Thyrus Procession"
by which the priests of the Jews enter the temple to
presumably engage in Bacchic revelry. (One may note
some of the same Bacchic elements in the Pauline
worship at Corinth).

Morangenes insists that the Jewish High priest
imitates the customs of Dionysus on certain festivals
and Sabbaths. (We will leave the ceromonies of the RCC
for another time).

"... the High Priest, who leads the procession at
their festival wearing a miter and clad in a
gold-embroidered fawnskin, a robe reaching to the
ankles, and buskins, with many bells attached to his
clothes and ringing below him as he walks. All this
correspond to our custom (i.e. Bacchic rites). ...
they also have noise as an element in their ...
festivals ... The carved thyrus on the prediment of
the Temple and the drums ... surely benefits no other
divinity but Dionysus."

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Orphic Hymns
44. TO SEMELE
insense--storax
I call upon the daughter of Cadmus, queen of all,
fair Semele of the lovely tresses and the full bosom,
mother of thyrus-bearing and joyous Dionysos.
She was driven to great pain by the blazing
thunderbolt
which, through the counsels of immortal Kronian Zeus,
burned her,
and by noble Perephone she was granted honors
among mortal men, honors given every third year.
Then they reenact the travail for your son Bacchos,
the sacred ritual of the table, and the holy
mysteries.

Now, you, goddess, do I beseech, daughter of Cadmus,
queen,
always be gentle-minded toward the initiates.