Jeffrey Gibson

Arrggghhh. Got me there. Was working from memory and no sleep. I meant St. Paul's Corinth.

Not a church -- he never uses ekklesia for the Roman believers -- and certainly not a church that he founded.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

And - leaving aside the question of what criteria you use to determine what early Christians ought and ought not to have done --these locations are?

Jeffrey

MarkA

I would expect these locations to be where all graffiti is found. That is, public buildings, walls, table tops, etc. Certainly any, or at least some, building public or private where the gatherings were held should have such evidence.

As to motivation for the early christians, can anyone name any movement that has not used symbols for group identification and solidarity? Can anyone give an example where such a group did not use those symbols either publically or in their meeting places? Modern examples are of course numerous but in the classical world I cannot think of any religious sect that did not use them. Amulets, carvings and even drawings are in evidence. Just not pre-Nicene christian ones apparently.

spamandham

Yes, and I'm pointing out that we have texts, thus refuting the idea that we should expect nothing to survive due to persecution. Under the ordinary framework, something did survive - the texts, but why only the texts?

True, but Tertullian and Justin Martyr give us the idea it was popular in their pleas to the Emperor.

spamandham

"Paul" implies Christianity is more widespread than simply the churches he founded.

Galations 3:6-9
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Justion Martyr - The First Apology, Tertullian - The Apology. Both are pleas to various rulers to end summary trials. The christians are unnamed and the pleas generic, implying a wide spread persecution (which would require a wide spread base presumably)

Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar, per the intro to Justin Martyr's First Apology

andrewcriddle

I'm not sure where you get the idea of mostly legal from. Christianity may, arguably, have been mostly tolerated in the 2nd century, but, even if this is true, it is not the same thing. Most Christians kept their faith quiet and the authorities mostly ignored them. Open profession of ones faith, say on a tombstone, would have been risky.

The other point is when one speaks of Christianity being widespread and popular from the mid 2nd century on, it may help to have some guesses at figures. I would guess that in 150 CE there were about 100-150 thousand Christians in the world, almost all of them within the Roman Empire. That is a lot of people but only a small fraction of the population of the Roman Empire at that time (50 Million or higher).

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson

How on earth does a reference to God's intention to remove the curse spoken of in Gen 1-11 through the children of Abraham prove, let alone show, that Christianity was widespread?

May we have the actual texts from Justin and Tertullian that you think are relevant, so we can examine what they actually say and imply and whether this is what you claim they do?

And I thought you said that all early Christian fathers reveled in stories of persecutions, or at least that this was a theme that appears in a great deal of early Christian literature? How does producing two instances (and do Justin and Tertullian "revel" in the stories?) prove your point?

Jeffrey

spamandham

Everywhere, or only in the regions being persecuted? Justin Martyr and Tertullian both wrote openly to the leaders of Rome. If Christianity was universally illegal and Christians universally persecuted, could they have gotten away with such an open profession of their beliefs?

spamandham

No, I didn't say that.

Jeffrey Gibson

You said:

So while "all" is an exaggeration (see my qualifying note "or at least that this was a theme that appears in a great deal of early Christian literature" in message #5230082), "Christan fathers" implies a fair amount, and certainly more than two.

On top of that, you've failed so far to show that the two fathers you do adduce (Justin or Tertullian) do what you say the "christian fathers" do, namely, "revel" in stories of these believers alleged martyrdom's, boasting of how boldly and faithfully they withstood any punishment or torture inflicted rather than submit even an inch, or renounce their faith.

I'm beginning to suspect you don't have the command of the early Church fathers that you, in your global claims about them, have laid claim to possess.

Jeffrey