ax

Where is the proof that magick works?
I have been doing alot of research on this subject and so far I have come to a conclusion.
The majority of people claiming that it works, are either 15 to 21 yr olds, or 50 yr old hippies. They all seem to be rejects of society and looking for somewhere to fit in. Magick seems to offer them a sense of belonging. A sense of "I'm special".
And so far, the so-called proof is that of prayer.
EG:
"I had a headache. I prayed to god and took 75 paracetamol tablets. Then 15 min's later the heaqdache was gone! Praise god!".
The results of this magick dwell in the realms of inevitablility rather than the supernatural.
So I'm wondering, what your views are on this subject, and what experience have you had with it?



Note to mod's: Feel free to move this thread if it does not belong here.

Leah

There is no proof unless experienced in person.
Rejects of society: You will probably find that people living with some form of spirituality usually have
- an over average iq
- different thinking patterns
- synesthesia (which makes interaction often a lot more difficult due to the mutitute of senses experienced simultaneously)
- a life experience far above ones age
- substantial financial background
- a strong bond with nature
- certain artisictic talents
They often are hermites but less for being a reject but rather because they feel more comfortable with themselves.
Such people usually don't make their way of life public, and often even avoid letting friends enter their home, unless they are well-informed.

Your example of prayer sounds more like christianity.
A magician would in the instace of a headache,
- wonder whom one might have caused such pain that that person is thinking so negatively about one, and how one could balance this out again
- wear ones amulette or re-charge such
- take a salt bath to free oneself from negative energy
- take some time of silence (during which chose a position that relaxes the back muskes, consequently already easing the pain, and enabling a 'flow')
- use herbal essences
- make a tea of specific herbs
- reflect what one might have left out of balance in ones spiritual life

This usually helps a lot more than any painkiller which is only of temporary use, rather than gripping the trouble by the root : it's source.

ax

Experienced in person? Air exists and can experienced by others. It's proof can be documented etc. Why is there an exeption with magick/magic?
I've experienced MANY spiritualist and people that follow some sort of spiritual path, and their iq is low. Their ability to distinguish fact from fiction is almost non existant.
How is a hermit well informed? Eg: http://www.occultforums.com/
If you ask people there why they believe what they do, the answer usually given is: "Just because".

Can you prove that those things work? How do you know they are not convincing you that they work by your own wishful thinking?

Magic Primate

If something produces real results, those results should be detectable to rigorous, independent observation, ie. science. Of course there are some things which are beyond the scope of scientific method at this time, but claims of healing, etc are claims of actual changes in the physical world which are fully testable. If the result is only ever detectable to one person subjectively, then there is a good chance that the only thing that has changed is the perception.

Leah

The simple answer is : Challenge someone who claims such abilities, and then judge for yourself.
But remember that many mainly 'play' with the subject, and only a few have mastered it (me not being one of the latter).
I know such people, too. How about calling them 'so called spiritualists' ?! (see above)
If we met, and I told you something about yourself that you have never shared with anyone, ..., I would call it 'prove'.

Basically: as long as it works and doesn't harm anyone unintentionally, let it be done.

Wishful thinking: I myself am studying this, at present. And if I ever come up with an explanation, I shall happily share it. So far, all I can commment is, that the basic 'rituals' find their alikes in many nature-orientated cultures of the past/present. Only when (if ever) I've come to understand 'the root' of it all, can I comment on the realistic dimentions of possibilities, or lack of such.

@ Magic Primate:
Claims of healing can be proved, certainly.
But the scientific explanation for it is probably not possible.
What is the scientific exlanation for "positive thinking", for instance?

satu largi

..
Hmm, you seem to be singing my song.
Hermits, in the age of the Net, can be very well informed indeed, I can assure you.....

Magic Primate

There is no sense in which recognised (I assume for the moment)benefits from 'positive thinking' lie outside the sphere of known psychological (and ultimately physical) mechanisms.

People with a positive attitude are biased towards being successful in what they attempt and are more likely to enjoy it and perceive it subsequently as being successful.

Thoughts are physical events which affect and are affected by the rest of the physical world.

reverendmoss

I'd like to hear, Ax, where you've done your research on magick.

Most people have the wrong idea about what effectual magick is. In my experience, most magicians, pagans, and ritualists are poor kids (or 50 yr. old hippies! ) looking to overhaul their identities. It's not results they're really interested in, just how it makes them feel (or look to the outside world). It's another layer of make-up, rather than a system for spiritual work.

If it's results you want, you'll have to look elsewhere.

All forms of ritual and magick are merely methods for reshaping the consciousness of the user. Far too many people have read Tolkein (now Rawling) and believe they can summon fire or cause objects to move of their own accord. Magick is not a spectator sport. The 'k' on the end (which I abhor using even though I see it's usefulness) derives from the desire to separate Dion Fortune from Doug Henning. In drawing circles and sigils, creating a rich environment of symbols, the practitioner is allowing themselves to change their own perceptions about a thing (e.g my headache will go away, my friend's cancer will heal, my dog will be found). It's essentially self-delusion with the goal of changing one's own mind, one's beliefs. I find it all tedious and distracting.

Belief is the major force at work here. The true trick is to remit judgements, prejudices, expectations, and allow the thing to come to pass. This is harder to do than it sounds. It's important to ask oneself if it's truly what we want, or merely what we feel we should want. What are the gains of not having it?

It's an old song, i know, but the truth is: If you do not want to see it, I cannot show you.

More subtle forms, the 'Tweaking of Reality', are possible, though much less showy.
2 excellent examples of modern magick:
Bending statistics
the Field Center
(go to principles:basic theory)

Keep looking and keep your eyes open. You'll find it if you truly seek it. I feel i did.

starling

Magic is generally the search for exceptions to Entropy, as far as I have experienced: cures for disease, free lunches, miracles, afterlives and the like. To prove that magic works, first find an exception to the 3 laws of Thermodynamics. After that everything should follow naturally.

And please don't spell it with a 'k'. Attic, bardic, basic, chronic, civic, classic, cleric, clinic, colic, comic, conic, critic, cubic, cynic, epic, ethic, finnic, folic, frolic, gallic, gamic, gnomic, gothic, graphic, herdic, lithic, logic, lyric, lytic, manic, medic, mimic, myrrhic, mythic, otic, panic, phallic, phasic, phonic, physic, pyrrhic, relic, sapphic, scenic, slavic, sonic, stannic, static, stoic, strophic, tannic, thermic, tonic, topic, traffic, tragic, trophic, tropic, vatic, vedic, xeric, and zoic are all spelled without a 'k'. No need to exclude magic from that group. If by most reasoning it's okay to put a 'k' after magic because such words are rare and "cool" then maybe we should spell it magich, after stomach! Magic was originally the Greek word 'magikos', taken by Latin as magice then magica, finally landing in Middle English as magik(e) before its final form as 'magic'. Not once has it ever been spelled with a 'c' followed by a 'k'. Frankly if it were up to me I'd spell it phonetically as majik, and eliminate the useless letter 'c' entirely from our alphabet. But there were no secret cabals of ancient people with deep secrets who spelled it as "it was meant to be" as magick. I think. (Thank you Rhyming Dictionary)

I think everybody wants to feel special. The fact that 15 to 21 yr olds and 50 yr olds are having a problem with that is a symptom of ill in our society. But have you ever considered why they were rejected by society? Maybe their following of Magic was what alienated them from mundane people in the first place, and your claim of magic as a response to societal rejection is mixing up the cause and the effect. Maybe their open minds that made them receptive to mystical forces beyond our comprehension are what qualify them for our exclusion and contempt.

I have never in my life, not in all the vast years of experience that have flashed by, seen a single identifiable exception to the laws of Thermodynamics. Thinks break, die, fall apart, crumble, all by themselves, but take effort and destruction of other things to put them back together, some processes being totally irreversible. A wish does nothing, a prayer receives no answer, a magic spell changes not the outcome of events even to the slightest degree. When I see something that is magic, and I will always be looking for it, I will post a message to this forum with information on exactly how to repeat the experience.


Starling

Heathen Dawn

So it’s just another faith-game. Can you seriously believe that your acts with circles and sigils could cure illnesses? Not only is there no scientific support for such a notion, but also, if it does work, it’s an absolute scandal that the practitioners don’t go to troubled areas of the world (eg Africa with its hunger and AIDS) and do mass curing there. It’s just like prayer.

But as you said, it’s self-delusion. Nothing more than that. You might as well be imagining ghosts.

Pfffft! That’s irrationality in extremis. I could just as well have stayed an Orthodox Jewish theist.