TySixtus

I meant that Catholics were the first Christians by the critrea I listed later- they were the first to profess belief in Christ's divinity. That is, in my humble opinion, what makes a Christian a Christian.

Ty

Chili

I don't mind you calling Catholic Christians but if all Catholics are Christians what would you call the Catholic who gets saved "Billy Graham style?" He will be the first one to tell you that Catholics are not saved and will leave the Church angry for having witheld the truth from him while calling them pharisees all the way there and back (Jesus did!). The Trinity is a simple solution to explain the Godhead to Catholics. In here the Father is the subconscious mind, the son the conscious mind and the HS is the strained relationship between these two . . . until the Catholic gets born again and from that day on the two will have become one (called Hypostatic Union, or Hardy's "Convergence of the Twain") and the dove can descend because it is redundant from that day on. Hence, no trinity in heaven, or in purgatory where we can go directly to the source.It doesn't matter which is true and which is not true because it is all second hand to the Catholic Christian anyway (Jn5:39-40). We, in our keen descernment can fill in the blanks because if we are called to live our own Gospel in Purgatory we can write our own afterwards and correct the error made by others for what ever reason they were made. That makes them believers in Christ but not Christians who have obtained the mind of Christ. Catholics are believers and as believers are they doubters for belief cannot be conceived to exist without doubt and here it would not be right to call doubters Christians or atheist would also be called Christians.

To have the mind of Christ is to be beyond faith, and therefore beyond doubt, and is to have been set free from faith and doubt through understanding . . . wherefore there are no Churches in the New Jerusalem (heaven) and Catholicsm is a religion for believers, and doubters, but not for Christians, especially not for those who have "finished the race."

Chili

Do you realize that the average Catholic does not understand what it means to profess Christ's divinity? If you would tell him that Christ was divine he would agree with you but if you would ask him if Christ was divine he would probably respond with "that's what they say."

. . . and if you would ask him if he was a Christian he would say: "what do you mean, I am a Catholic!"

funinspace

Really? You must know some very different "average" Catholics. The Catholics I know understand the Trinity, and Christ's divinity. The part of "that's what they say" is about the silly stuff on condoms et.al. Maybe you have some polling/study data on these "average" Catholics? And by average Catholics, I mean the ones who actually go to church sometimes, and don't just use it like an ethnic title.

Chili

Read some of the post on this BB and see how many or most Catholics introduce themselves as Catholic.

funinspace

Not to quible too fine a point, but the RCC no older than the Ethiopic, Syriac, and maybe even the tiny Xian church in India. I agree most all the Western churches have derived in some way, shape, or form out of the RCC, but they are not the only ancients. Their just the one that most people know.

And yes I agree, most Catholics are Xian just like any other Protestant sect has believers, doubters, and also confused people.

funinspace

There's a difference between verbage and theological understanding. I forget his username here, but it's "albert" something. I doubt he confuses the 2. And just like there are confused Catholics, there are confused Protestants. How many Xians would think Shelby Sponge to be Xain any more?

TySixtus

Chili, no offense, but you are demonstrating a fundamental ignorance of Catholocism. No real attempt has been made by the RC chruch to explain the Trinity- it is called a "Mystery". That isn't to say that philosophers and theologians haven't tried to figure it out, or simplify it, but the official (thus, the 'correct') cannon of the RC church is that the Trinity is a Mystery.

Okay now you are switching gears. In your original thread, you claimed that Catholics weren't Christians. Now you are saying that Catholics haven't obtained the 'mind of Christ'. At the rist of getting in trouble with the mods again, I'll tell you that I am getting upset with kind of rhetoric. What does this mean? How does one 'obtain the mind of Christ'? As far as doubt is concerned, by your reasoning anyone that ever doubts is no longer a Christian. That means if you doubt (doubting what? That's a whole different question. Doubt Christ's divinity, his sanity, his gender?) for even a second, you are no longer Christian. Do you get your Christian status back if you stop doubting? Or is it gone forever?

Please state, in plain terms, what makes a Catholic not Christian. Going by the definition I established earlier, in that a Christian professes belief in Christ's divnity.

Ty

Chili

. . . but Shelby Spong never was a Christian but a Catholic! If we are Christian the "I'll never leave you nor forsake you" is in effect and this cannot be negated not even by the Existentialist who built his theory on that effort.

His name is Albert the Traditional Catholic.

funinspace

Well, this is sounding more and more like a label game. When you write "Catholic" do you mean: Roman Catholic, Universal, or what? Are you saying most praticing RC's don't accept Jesus's (Christ's) divinity, and being saviour? That's usually one of the key defining marks of who reasonably gets to use the label Christian. Sponge is an Episcapalian(sp?).