aa5874

No, No, No!! In the Canon, virtually nothing from the Pauline letters is established and not one other author of the Canon claimed archons killed Jesus.

Please, identify any other author of the Canon that claimed archons crucified Jesus??

It was the claim that the Jews killed or delivered up Jesus to be killed that was well established in antiquity. We have copies of wrtinings where it is specifically claimed that the Jews killed Christ, the Son of God.

We also have the the stories of the Jesus character when the Jews told Pilate to Crucify Jesus even though Pilate did NOT find any fault with him.

It was the Sanhedrin who claimed Jesus was guilty of death--Not demons.

It was the story from the author of gMark that was well established and copied virtually word for word in antiquity by authors of the Gospels and Acts.

1. gMatthew.

2. The long gMark.

3. gLuke

4. gJohn

5. Acts of the Apostles

Jesus claimed he was the Son of God and was found to be guilty of death.

Mark 14:64 KJV
Mark 15:14 KJV And to show that the claim was established that the Jews killed or delivered up Jesus to be killed we have statements from many Apologetic writers.

1. Aristides claimed that the Jews Pierced Jesus in his "Apology".

2. Justin Martyr claimed the Jews killed Jesus in his "First Apology".

3. Irenaeus claimed the Jews killed Jesus in "Against Heresies"

4. Hippolytus claimed the Jews killed Jesus in his "Treatise Against the Jews".

5. Tertullian claimed the Jews killed Jesus in his "Answer to the Jews".

Tenorikuma

In the Ignatian Epistle to the Smyreans, the author also writes that Christ's life, death and ascension happened in secret without the powers of evil being aware of what was happening.

wordy

Luther seems to have agreed too. So why can not that be the real purpose of the text?

Bernard Muller

Actually, what these archons do not know is God's hidden wisdom:
1Cr 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification.
1Cr 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Cr 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,"

According to the context, a God's plan (involving the Lord's crucifixion and the advent of the kingdom for Christian elects only, plus some God's wrath administered on the others) is the emanation of God's hidden wisdom.
Because the leaders among Romans and Jews were taking advantage from the status quo, they were not interested about that God's plan and putting it in action, starting by crucifying the Lord.

a) In 'Romans', the "rulers" ('archon') are human authorities (& also Roman officials, as Pilate!):
Romans 13:3-6 NKJV "For rulers ['archon'] are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing."

b) 1 Corinthians 2:6-7 YLT "And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers ['archon'] of this age -- [the wisdom] of those becoming useless, but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,"

Here (& in 1 Corinthians 2:8), the rulers do not have God's wisdom; but only Paul & his Christians did! That only tells us those rulers were not "in the Spirit". It does not say these rulers were bad, just ignorant of God's "hidden" wisdom.
One more point "we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret": who are the most likely not to know yet (decades after Jesus' crucifixion) about that secret "wisdom of God"?
Demons & Satan or Roman & Jewish leaders?
See 2 Corinthians 4:4 and its implication.

Furthermore, according to Paul, "this age" has only one godly entity, "the god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4), likely Satan (Romans 16:20).
My viewpoint? For 1 Corinthians 2:8 Paul had probably human authorities in his mind, but it is possible he included also Satan as the top "disinformer", considering 2 Corinthians 4:4 ("The god of this age has blinded the mind of the unbelievers ...").

I note also:
a) the emphasis of the verse is on an unspecified God's plan being at work. The larger context is about human wisdom versus God's one, and the role of the Spirit. Therefore, the identity of these (generic) rulers is of no consequence for Paul's argument; specific identification was not required.
b) from 1 Corinthians 1:18 to 1 Corinthians 2:16, the ones who do not understand God's wisdom (& his plan) are specified to be humans (ref: 1:20, 22-25; 2:5, 9, 11, 13-14) and not spirits.

'Ephesians' & 'Colossians' (where there is no suggestion demon spirits crucified Jesus!) are not written by Paul but later by others: pseudo-Pauline letters simply cannot be trusted to represent Paul's thoughts & beliefs. And Paul never specified "the rulers" ('archon') as heavenly powers!

Cordially, Bernard

outhouse

Before I begin I will state, RC states he is just touching the tip of the iceberg here, and much of my arguements would be addressed more fully in his book.


Correct





Nope.


He is stating

A pre existing version of Jesus existed that was a celestial version created by the same sort process as Islam and Mormanism by hallucinating people, in which the Celstial Jesus character was Euhemerized [roughly [10:30] written in mythical allegeory and set on earth.



The hallucinating part is a gross misunderstanding for the ancient mindset.

These were not hallucinations. Dreams, day dreams, visions, were considered as "real" and with meaning. Hallucinations were taking place within religious context under fasting ect, and these were also intepreted as real events. But would not constitute the foundation for any religion.

Your conscious thought was controlled by good and evil spritual beings, Archon and God.

Celestial or supernatural beings controlled everything from your thoughs to your health. If you had "holy" thoughts of god himself, one could interpret these as "god" talking to you and would not be hallucinations. Hell people do that today.

jdboy

Ok, but the Romans were trying to establish the Peace of Rome they were trying to adopt all into their kingdom just confess that Jesus is Lord and you would have Salvation. Josephus tells us the zealots would not call any man Lord

outhouse

No

They were severely oppressing the people of Israel

No

Romans were not adopting people


Christian dogma not Roman dogma, when the movement began


Correct

Jesus was a failed messiah in Judaism

He did however flourish within the Helleistic Proselytes of Judaism who converted Gentiles into their way of thinking.

Clivedurdle

I am sympathetic to Julian Jaynes in that ancient peoples continually chatted with gods and demons and that we no longer do mainly because of reading writing and edumacation, and we tend to lock up people who still talk to the gods.

But I can't see why you think Paul's Jesus became a human and walked around here. Surely a perfect sacrifice has to be in the heavens? Now I see as a glass darkly. We are strutting around on a stage. The real stuff happens in heaven.

Without A Vision The People Perish Proverbs 29:18

Bernard Muller

I am drawing a blank here. What (mythical) sacrifice do you know happened in heavens in antiquity?

Cordially, Bernard

outhouse

Because Paul describes his Jesus as human who was divine.

Which was common for Emperors at this exact time.



No one has built a strong case for a pre existing Jesus.

No one has built a strong case for a celestial only Jesus.

All I see is a martyred man at passover, with a resurrection tied to him that started oral tradition that took a decade or two for the mythology to grow.