grendel prime

was refering to a present tense raising of the dead by jesus's current disciples, (the you will do greater works than these clause...) verifiable by modern scientific evidence i.e. subjects heart and brain functions cease for three days and then resume after pastor so an so prays over the body. (of ocurse, you still have the philosophical problem of whether it's actually the same person...)

grendel prime

yeah, they're campling under a huge pillar of fire in the desert and seem to turn to idol worship at the drop of a hat. that must be why god doesn't do that anymore

i agree that the events that would make christianity, or any theism truly rational would take all of the faith out of it, but i spend so much time go over the lack of evidence for christianity, i was wondering what thoughts were on what evidence for christianity would be like.

was really hoping to get some theistic response as to what it would take for christianity to give up (though i was myself a fundy, so i know the likelyhood of that ever happening)...

Pyrrho

Let's see; the story would have to be consistent with itself, and the story would have to make sense (i.e., no innocents dying just because God likes to see the blood flow; God could just forgive without having a supposedly innocent Jesus dying), and then there would have to be some evidence, like the sky parting and seeing God's face, and hear him speak in a loud voice (but not deafeningly loud) that all could hear and understand.

Basically, there is no more way you could get me to believe in Christian theology than that murder and rape on a grand scale are good. See Numbers 31, where murder and rape on a grand scale are commanded by Moses on behalf of God. Here is a relevant bit, but, by all means, read as much context as you want:

All the male children are commanded to be murdered, and all of the females who are not virgins are commanded to be murdered, and all of the virgin females are to be raped by the victors.

Tell me, what would it take to get you to believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? Are the stories too ridiculous for you to believe? If so, why is that? And do you imagine the wild stories in the Bible are any more believable? If so, why?

inquisitive01

A lack of the uncomprehendable order/design that is present in the world and the universe.

grendel prime

but your entire theology isn't based on ID is it? what about the second coming prophey? is there a date at which christianity should simply give up?

grendel prime

if i ever saw a six foot talking rabbit i might give up and become a christian again

Mageth

What makes the order we see "uncomprehendable"? What will you do if the order/design you perceive is someday "comprehended" or explained naturally?

This simply sounds like an argument from ignorance or a "god of the gaps" arugment to me...there are things we (as yet) don't comprehend; therefore, God exists.

Amaleq13

I understand what you're suggesting but I think that is a really tough condition to meet given that pattern-detection appears to be inherent to human nature. Detecting patterns is what makes a good hunter and a good farmer. We would never have survived as a species without that ability. Unfortunately, we have no built-in error correction mechanism which makes us prone to "false positives". In other words, we tend to detect patterns where there are none (eg shapes in clouds, face on the moon) and seek to continue observed patterns even when they change (eg sleight-of-hand magic, optical illusions).

This standard becomes even more problematic given that any universe capable of producing and sustaining life complex enough to make such an observation would necessarily have a consistent structure (ie a comprehensible order). A universe with randomly changing laws of physics, for example, would probably not be capable of sustaining the necessary requirements for life to develop.

MadHatter

If I saw a six foot tall, talking rabbit, I would be more inclined to believe in six foot tall, talking rabbits than to believe that nonsense in the bible. lol

For me to believe there is some all-powerful, omnipresent being who created everything in existence, I guess I would need to be put in this thing's presence.

Magus55

Find Jesus Christ's body ( and prove for a fact that its actually Him)