Sven

When all else fails, accuse your opponents of character failures. Great argument.


Exactly the same we here from member of other religions. Personal revelation has never been a reliable way to truth. *yawn*

[emphasis mine]
:banghead:
Message to Helpmabob's brain (directly, because his eyes and ears apparently won't let him notice):
All that you know about Jesus is words. This is what books (including the bible) are composed of.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: Consider this simple hypothetical scenario: John Smith is a skeptic. He has read the Bible but has rejected it. Jesus returns to earth and performs miracles all over the world. John Smith becomes a Christian based upon seeing Jesus perform miracles. The logical conclusion is that John Smith did not previously reject Jesus. He only rejected insufficient evidence. Once confronted with sufficient evidence, John Smith became a Christian and ought to be entitled to go to heaven. If God does not wish to reveal himself to John Smith in the manner that I described, that is his choice, but I do not have a choice regarding whether or not to abandon my principles and morals and accept a God who refuses to do everything that he is able to do in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. No amount of promised rewards and punishments could ever change that. If God wishes to impose impossible demands on me, that is his choice, but there is not anything that I can do about it.

If Jesus returned earth and performed miracles all over the world, it is quite likely that my hypothetical scenario would apply to a lot of people. Human nature being what it is, any being with sufficient power can attract a lot of attention.

At the EofG forum, mdarus told me:

I replied:

Wilfried Dornwald

"If Jesus returned earth and performed miracles all over the world" you have no choice whatsoever, you just HAVE TO become a Christian. It's not a free-will decision anymore.

Johnny Skeptic

It is interesting to note that while God wants people to know that he can predict the future, at the same time he does not want his ability to predict the future to be obvious to everyone. This is analogous to the following scenario: A man has a financial newletter in which he makes predictions about the stock market. He wants people to benefit from his ability to predict what will happen in financial markets, but at the same time he makes his predictions in such a way that they are not obvious to everyone and are frequently misunderstood and debated around the world, frequently even among his own supporters.

John Kesler

According to Mathew (and Luke), in Jesus' day there were people who rejected him despite his miracles:

Sven

I've heart this bullshit response often. Want to know why it's bullshit?
Two reasons:
1) Look into your bible. There were supposedly countless persons who witnessed miracles personally, who walked with and talked to Jesus. Did they have no free will decision?
2) Simply believing in the existence of a deity and worshipping him (AKA accepting Jesus as your savior) are two entirely different things. We would still have the choice to call him an evil bastard.

Johnny Skeptic

Are you referring to Romans 14:11? It says "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." If that Scripture is what you are referring to, you are making an argument what God WILL do, but I am making an argument what God NEEDS to do if he wants me to accept him. It is impossible for me to will myself to accept a God who refuses to do everything that the can in order to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". Either that is a lie, or Romans 9:18 is a lie. Romans 9:18 says "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth".

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

And why do you work to discredit the Bible?

Well, here it is…

Johnny: “What you need is testimonies from Muslims that they contest Isaiah 13:19-20.”

Lee: “… if the Qur'an restores the Scriptures, why then whatever is not in the Qur'an was not originally there, and was inserted by humans, and is not from God, and it is proper and even incumbent on them to refute it. And this prophecy does not appear in the Qur'an.”

But in this case, they know where the city of Babylon is, and found the Ishtar gate, various ruined temples, etc.

We have however discussed all this again and again, and I agree the Persians did not destroy Babylon, this part of the prophecy was completed much later, making it more improbable to be fulfilled in such an extended way.

Well, that’s simply not true, for the river overflowed its banks (I think by Mr. Persian Xerxes) and the site became a swamp.

This also is simply untrue.

Jack it seems is omniscient! I don’t think Hitler was so self-restrained.

Now this is just silly!

Then the Native Americans conquered Germany and Japan in the second World War?

I agree, only you can test it, and disprove it at any time. I dare you!

Right, the theists are not mindless yea-sayers wielding the rubberstamp for whatever they hear… Yet “an open mind is like an open mouth, only good when it closes on something substantial” (G.K. Chesterton—I’m quoting from memory).

Regards,
Lee

P.S. I double-dog dare you!!

Jack the Bodiless

Lee:
The prophecy was supposed to be fulfilled by the MEDES, according to both Isaiah and Jeremiah. And if Babylon is then supposed to be completely uninhabited, any ongoing habitation means that the prophecy has then FAILED, and it cannot be "completed" at any time thereafter.
Yes, it is true. Remember those photographs?
There is no evidence that Hitler even WANTED to conquer the world. He wanted to carve out a "Greater Germany" in Europe. He did NOT initially want to go to war with Britain, for instance.

But, in any case, Hitler's failure to eradicate the Jews (even those in America!) is hardly miraculous. Is the ongoing existence of Islam (despite numerous crusades) proof of the existence of Allah?
So you're prepared to drop your "silly" claim that Assyrians still exist?
The AMERICANS did, yes. But, according to you, they didn't! By your argument, those nations were defeated by the British, Germans, French, Poles, Italians, Africans and so forth: the immigrants who occupied "America", but not the "Americans"!
Tested and disproved. So, when will you announce your deconversion?

Johnny Skeptic

In order to try to get people to give up Christianity or not become Christians. If the Babylon prophecy were discredited, do you have any evidence that a significant number of Christians, or even 1% of Christians, would give up Christianity, and/or that that a significant number of people who were considering becoming Christians, or even 1% of people who were considering becoming Christians, would give up considering becoming Christians?

If you were a Muslim, and if you believed that if the Babylon prophecy were discredited that not even .01% of Christians would give up Christianity, and that the U.S. would still not adopt a friendly foreign policy towards Muslims, would you want to go to all the trouble of rebuilding Babylon? Most likely not. If you were a Muslim, and if you wanted to discredit the Babylon prophecy, your first choice would logically be to invite the world media, including Pat Robertson’s CBN television team, to witness Arabs pitching their tents in Babylon, and then ask Lee Merrill try to explain it away. Only a mentally incompetent person would rebuild a city when all that they had to do was have some Arabs pitch their tents.

But you need to ask Muslims specifically about the prophet Isaiah, and specifically about the Babylon prophecy, and tell us what they say. Since you are the claimant you ought to do this. I suspect that you won’t lest you embarrass yourself. If you refuse to contact Muslims, I assure you that I will. I enjoy conducting research, and my research will be so thorough that you will be leaving on the next bus out of town. Please be advised that my research would include contacting some professors at Wheaton College. There is little that I enjoy more than discrediting fundamentalist Christians with fundamentalist Christian scholars. I did this at the Theology Web. In one debate with a Christian, I produced evidence from NIV translation consultant Ed Rubingh, and professor James Freerksen, Th.D., an expert on Greek from the seminary at Liberty University, both of whom agreed with my position, only to have my opponent disagree with the experts. I assume that you would disagree with experts from Wheaton College. Is that true, Lee? I have a proposal for you: Please state your arguments about the Babylon prophecy in a letter to the Department of Religion at Wheaton College, and I will send your letter to Wheaton College along with my own comments. How about it.

You are challenging Muslims to rebuild Babylon, but why hasn’t ONE SINGLE PROMINENT CHRISTIAN made the same challenge? Possibly because only a meager handful of Christians, probably not even .001% of Christians, agree with your absurd arguments about the Babylon prophecy. I have not found one single Bible commentary, including one that is edited by noted Christian scholar F. F. Bruce, that comes anywhere near agreeing with your arguments regarding the Babylon prophecy. You could easily contact some professors at Wheaton College and ask them for their opinions on this matter, but you most certainly would not do so because you know that they will not agree with your arguments. When a fundamentalist Christian can’t even find support for his arguments within the fundamentalist Christian community, surely almost no one will agree with him. Are you actually unaware of how little support you have even in the fundamentalist Christian community? I doubt that the pastor of your own church agrees with you, or your wife if you are married, or any of your friends. If I am wrong, please give me the names and e-mail addresses of some people who agree with your arguments.

Why won’t you send your challenge to the Iraqi embassy and see what they say? Why won’t you invite a well-prepared Muslim to this forum to debate you? How can Muslims accept or reject your challenge when not even one in one million
Muslims know about it, and when you refuse to contact Christians with a media presence who are better able to advertise the challenge. It seems strange to me that you have chosen to limit your challenge to the BC&H forum at the Secular Web where there is not even one single Muslim.

You have said on a number of occasions that Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible, but are you not missing a golden opportunity to widely publicize your challenge? My word, Lee, if I believed that God would prevent Arabs from pitching their tents in Babylon, I would widely publicize a challenge all over the world. Muslims would immediately accept the challenge, and either of two things would happen: the prophecy would be discredited, or the attempt would fail. If the attempt succeeded, what would you say? If the attempt failed, and if the attempt were broadcast by the world media, what do you suppose would be the attitudes of the typical Christian and the typical Muslim?

You don’t even have one single piece of correspondence between you and a Muslim regarding this matter. If my position were the same as yours is, I would have made numerous contacts with Muslims years ago, including the Iraqi embassy. However, your obvious goal is to NOT make contact with Muslims lest you embarrass yourself. All that you are trying to do is win a debate at the Secular Web in order to try to save what little reputation you have left, NOT actually let Muslims know about your challenge.