Freethought & Rationalism Archive

punk77 · 04-23-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

G'morning!

Write this book. I dare you. However, I recommend the more modern roller coasters if it's shock value your looking for. I doubt you'll infuse much of that into any serious Christian.

I think you grossly underestimate Christians who actually study the Bible. They number in the millions, and nothing I've seen suggested here so far would raise anyone's eyebrows.

There are several varieties of Christians. There are those who never read the Bible, but go to church and just try to live decent lives. In practice they're usually very nice people, but not much different from secular nice people. Perhaps you'll know some things they don't - in fact you likely will.

There are those new to the faith who may know little. Perhaps you'll enlighten a few of those, but more likely you'll send them searching. ALWAYS a good thing if TRUTH is what you're looking for and new believers usually are.

There are those who are serious Theologians, who have made a career out of being Biblical scholars - you won't shock them either.

Then there is the rest of us - just serious Bible students. Highly unlikely you'll shock anyone in this camp at all. (BTW, this is the camp I would probably place myself in. I'm not a "scholar" per se, but as a missionary, certainly a serious student. I'm not easily shocked. ) It's amusing to read many of the threads on this DB and note how many of them are thought to be original by their owners and participants. Most serious Bible students have heard/read/discussed just about everything on here, yet you actually believe we've never run into these quandaries you spend so much time swirling round and round in your minds - not getting anywhere. :Cheeky: I doubt I've seen such a concentration of confused people in my life - and I've seen a lot.

I'd be fascinated to see what kind of "shocking" book you could come up with. I write for a living, so put me down for one. Who knows, if it's sufficiently interesting I may even have fun and write a rebuttal. - Jesse.

Where I live there are a lot of fundamentalist preachers/ministers

Quote:

who have made a career out of being Biblical scholars

but they just use the bits of the Bible that suit themselves and when they are challenged they just keep quite or try to put the conversation/debate onto a different tangent. They rely on

Quote:

those who never read the Bible, but go to church and just try to live decent lives

to just take their word on whatever subject they happen to be harping on about. Most peoples' actual knowledge of the Bible is woefully inadequate and plenty of preachers/ministers rely on that.

Quote:

It's amusing to read many of the threads on this DB and note how many of them are thought to be original by their owners and participants.

If somebody has not previously heard of something then it would appear to be original to them when they first hear/think of it. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to believe that just because I know about something everybody else will as well

.

Quote:

I doubt I've seen such a concentration of confused people in my life - and I've seen a lot.

I would suggest that you get together one person from each different christian sect and then see you will see what a concentration of confused people actually looks like :devil1:.

mephie00 · 04-24-2006, 01:12 PM

Jesse Leigh, please enlighten us!

Since we are so confused and you are ever so smart and your fellow students have figured out the answers to all of our questions, even the one's we haven't asked yet, why don't you please share with us your superior understanding and unlimeted wisdom on these issues.

Otherwise, people may think you are just promoting yourself with no intentions of delivering.

I think it be wonderful if you could finally clear up the ressurection narrative question for us. (Oh, and please don't off that tired old response that despite the differences and contradictions there is alot in common in the narratives and that proves it must be true. Cause that's what I call the "Everything is so different it's amazing anything is the same at all" line of argument.) Personally, I'd prefer to see Old Testament references to the Trinity, like a reference to the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

fromdownunder · 04-24-2006, 02:24 PM

Jesse Leigh.

I think you left a rather large group off your list. That would be those people who accept Christianity but don't believe the Bible is inerrant. There a probably a lot more of them around than people think, and they would not be upset by such a book.

They would simply shrug their shoulders and say "so what?"

In general I do tend to agree that such a book would not garner a large audience. These days, a market segment needs to be targetted to sell pretty much anything. A book would have to be written with a certain audience in mind, and not stray from that line.

Rather difficult to do 20,000+ different brands of Christianity containing such a wide divergance of views, NOT taking into account all the information that is already in the public domain and on the internet

Where is the market?

Norm

Jesse Leigh · 04-25-2006, 12:49 AM

G'morning!

Memphie: Only GOD can "enlighten" any of us. That isn't within the province of humans. I don't recall saying I am "smart," but do recall thinking the idea of this book is... not so smart. I've never seen one "out there" that can't easily be refuted. That is quite a different matter from "enlightening" someone, however.

fromdownunder: Anyone who says *any* Bible in circulation today is "inerrant" clearly hasn't paid very close attention to its contents. The Bible contains many substitutionary words (inserted or withheld by translators) which result in man-made contradictions. Every serious Bible student knows this.

My own studies have revealed that the Gospel and the essential components (lessons) in the Bible have been preserved inviolate. You can still find the Truth in *any* Bible, but the words are dead until the Holy Spirit gives Life to them, and that is called "Revelation," and as with "enlightenment," it is only given by God.

"God blinds the minds of the unbelievers," meaning, God isn't about to give Divine Revelation to people who come to Him and His Word without reverence and a heartfelt longing for the Truth. However, any who come truly seeking, and in a "childlike" manner, as a child would seek, God has promised to "enlighten." I've never seen this promise fail.

Many "search the Scriptures," but because they do so "for the wrong reasons" they are not **permitted** to find the Truth it contains. The Bible declares this, and to those of us who have spent decades observing such people, it is a self-evident truth.

Of course, I present my own understanding and experience only in this post. I know most will dismiss it, but perhaps... not everyone. This is why I write.

Love - Jesse.

Jack the Bodiless · 04-25-2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

fromdownunder: Anyone who says *any* Bible in circulation today is "inerrant" clearly hasn't paid very close attention to its contents. The Bible contains many substitutionary words (inserted or withheld by translators) which result in man-made contradictions. Every serious Bible student knows this.

While this has happened in some cases, the Bible also contains many errors in the original languages too. Every serious Bible student knows this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

My own studies have revealed that the Gospel and the essential components (lessons) in the Bible have been preserved inviolate.

...How could your "studies" reveal this? The original documents are lost, the gospels were written decades after the events (and the four "canonical" ones were cherry-picked from about 30, many of which have contradictory doctrines), and so forth.

Jack the Bodiless · 04-25-2006, 03:46 AM

As for being "not shocked":

Many Biblically-naive Christians would probably be surprised to learn that God ordered genocides, required human sacrifices (including child sacrifices), punished people for the crimes of others, acknowledged the existence of other gods, endorsed flat-Earthism and the belief that the sky was a solid dome with little lights (stars) attached to it, and so forth.

You haven't specified whether you're "not shocked" because you accept all this, or whether you're "not shocked" because you're unaware of this, or whether you're "not shocked" because you don't consider the entire Bible to be divinely inspired, or whether you're "not shocked" because you consider parts of the Bible to be "metaphorical", or whether you're "not shocked" because you've chosen to believe the convoluted excuses of Christian apologists. Or some combination of the above.

fromdownunder · 04-25-2006, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse Leigh

fromdownunder: Anyone who says *any* Bible in circulation today is "inerrant" clearly hasn't paid very close attention to its contents. The Bible contains many substitutionary words (inserted or withheld by translators) which result in man-made contradictions. Every serious Bible student knows this.

Many fundamentalist churches teach inerrancy to their flock. And not everyone has time to become bible students for many years. They are taught by an authority they accept, as most people do when, say, go to a doctor. You have studied it, and they have not. You seem to be impying some sort of "more Christian than thou" attitude here.

Quote:

My own studies have revealed that the Gospel and the essential components (lessons) in the Bible have been preserved inviolate. You can still find the Truth in *any* Bible, but the words are dead until the Holy Spirit gives Life to them, and that is called "Revelation," and as with "enlightenment," it is only given by God.

So, regardless of how often I read in the bible, I will not be "enlightened" unless God chooses me to be. Nice of him. There goes "free will". BTW, has bolding text replaced caps as the new form of shouting a response?

Quote:

"God blinds the minds of the unbelievers," meaning, God isn't about to give Divine Revelation to people who come to Him and His Word without reverence and a heartfelt longing for the Truth. However, any who come truly seeking, and in a "childlike" manner, as a child would seek, God has promised to "enlighten." I've never seen this promise fail.

So! I used to be a Christian who was confirmed by my Church, played the Organ for 17 years and taught Sunday School. Two of my children are born again Christians who believe the Bible is inerrant. You are either suggesting that God blinded my mind to send me away from the Church, or that I was insincere in the first place. Very polite of you. (Note re: bolding repeated)

Quote:

Many "search the Scriptures," but because they do so "for the wrong reasons" they are not **permitted** to find the Truth it contains. The Bible declares this, and to those of us who have spent decades observing such people, it is a self-evident truth.

So are you one of the chosen who can tell whether or not another person searches the scriptures for the "right" or the "wrong" reasons. This is very modest of you. I hope you and God are enjoying the fact that many are being left out of the picture because they do not have the "right reasons" for looking at scripture.

Quote:

Of course, I present my own understanding and experience only in this post. I know most will dismiss it, but perhaps... not everyone. This is why I write.

Since you have already stated above that only God will give the power to find the truth in the Gospel, don't you think that you are being just a little presumptious by this last statement.

Norm

Toto · 04-26-2006, 09:59 AM

The preaching and appeals to the supernatural have been split off and sent to Elsewhere.

arcadia · 06-06-2006, 01:42 PM

Has anybody ever printed up any tee-shirts with some of the more bizarre bible verses? They're cheaper than books, and nobody is likely to rip them off your back and throw them at you.

The bestiary might make for some amusement, too.

Toto · 06-06-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcadia

Has anybody ever printed up any tee-shirts with some of the more bizarre bible verses? They're cheaper than books, and nobody is likely to rip them off your back and throw them at you.

....

Landover Baptist sadistic Bible Verse Gear

But I wouldn't be too sure that no one would rip them off your back.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-24-2006, 01:12 PM	#22
mephie00 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 49	Jesse Leigh, please enlighten us! Since we are so confused and you are ever so smart and your fellow students have figured out the answers to all of our questions, even the one's we haven't asked yet, why don't you please share with us your superior understanding and unlimeted wisdom on these issues. Otherwise, people may think you are just promoting yourself with no intentions of delivering. I think it be wonderful if you could finally clear up the ressurection narrative question for us. (Oh, and please don't off that tired old response that despite the differences and contradictions there is alot in common in the narratives and that proves it must be true. Cause that's what I call the "Everything is so different it's amazing anything is the same at all" line of argument.) Personally, I'd prefer to see Old Testament references to the Trinity, like a reference to the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

04-24-2006, 02:24 PM	#23
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	Jesse Leigh. I think you left a rather large group off your list. That would be those people who accept Christianity but don't believe the Bible is inerrant. There a probably a lot more of them around than people think, and they would not be upset by such a book. They would simply shrug their shoulders and say "so what?" In general I do tend to agree that such a book would not garner a large audience. These days, a market segment needs to be targetted to sell pretty much anything. A book would have to be written with a certain audience in mind, and not stray from that line. Rather difficult to do 20,000+ different brands of Christianity containing such a wide divergance of views, NOT taking into account all the information that is already in the public domain and on the internet Where is the market? Norm

04-25-2006, 12:49 AM	#24
Jesse Leigh Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: In the Coastal Mountains in BC Canada Posts: 125	G'morning! Memphie: Only GOD can "enlighten" any of us. That isn't within the province of humans. I don't recall saying I am "smart," but do recall thinking the idea of this book is... not so smart. I've never seen one "out there" that can't easily be refuted. That is quite a different matter from "enlightening" someone, however. fromdownunder: Anyone who says any Bible in circulation today is "inerrant" clearly hasn't paid very close attention to its contents. The Bible contains many substitutionary words (inserted or withheld by translators) which result in man-made contradictions. Every serious Bible student knows this. My own studies have revealed that the Gospel and the essential components (lessons) in the Bible have been preserved inviolate. *You can still find the Truth in any* Bible, but the words are dead until the Holy Spirit gives Life to them, and that is called "Revelation," and as with "enlightenment," it is only given by God. "God blinds the minds of the unbelievers," meaning, God isn't about to give Divine Revelation to people who come to Him and His Word without reverence and a heartfelt longing for the Truth. However, any who come truly seeking, and in a "childlike" manner, as a child would seek, God has promised to "enlighten." I've never seen this promise fail. Many "search the Scriptures," but because they do so "for the wrong reasons" they are not permitted** to find the Truth it contains. The Bible declares this, and to those of us who have spent decades observing such people, it is a self-evident truth. Of course, I present my own understanding and experience only in this post. I know most will dismiss it, but perhaps... not everyone. This is why I write. Love - Jesse.

04-25-2006, 03:46 AM	#26
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	As for being "not shocked": Many Biblically-naive Christians would probably be surprised to learn that God ordered genocides, required human sacrifices (including child sacrifices), punished people for the crimes of others, acknowledged the existence of other gods, endorsed flat-Earthism and the belief that the sky was a solid dome with little lights (stars) attached to it, and so forth. You haven't specified whether you're "not shocked" because you accept all this, or whether you're "not shocked" because you're unaware of this, or whether you're "not shocked" because you don't consider the entire Bible to be divinely inspired, or whether you're "not shocked" because you consider parts of the Bible to be "metaphorical", or whether you're "not shocked" because you've chosen to believe the convoluted excuses of Christian apologists. Or some combination of the above.

04-26-2006, 09:59 AM	#28
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The preaching and appeals to the supernatural have been split off and sent to Elsewhere.

06-06-2006, 01:42 PM	#29
arcadia Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Appalachia Posts: 274	Has anybody ever printed up any tee-shirts with some of the more bizarre bible verses? They're cheaper than books, and nobody is likely to rip them off your back and throw them at you. The bestiary might make for some amusement, too.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.