Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-02-2006, 07:17 PM

Bfniii, the plague stories are downright absurd. It is impossible for a magician to turn a rod into a real snake, it is impossible for a magician to turn all the water in a country into blood and it is impossibble for a magician to create frogs.

Based on the Exodus story of plagues, magicians and sorcerers have supernatural powers of creation. The book of Exodus is an attempt by some unknown author to fabricate a God which could compete with the awesome power of sorcerers and magicians. The stories are totally ridiculous. There is no lesson to be learnt by reading about the plagues except those of witchcraft.

EthnAlln · 06-04-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I missed the line about building stuff in Egypt. Habiru??? Where did this whacko idea come from?

Sorry, that was the Israelites, not the Habiru (post #216). My apologies to you and bfniii for the error. But my question remains: Where are they, and how is it known that they were built by the Israelites?

darstec · 06-04-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EthnAlln

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I missed the line about building stuff in Egypt. Habiru??? Where did this whacko idea come from?

Sorry, that was the Israelites, not the Habiru (post #216). My apologies to you and bfniii for the error. But my question remains: Where are they, and how is it known that they were built by the Israelites?

One can "know" anything if they make it up.

EthnAlln · 06-04-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Because of the distinctly non-Hebrew Egyptian hieroglypics on them, I guess.

(you really have to understand bfniii to figure it out)

I am feeling somewhat dizzy. Off to bed.

I see your point. Glad I didn't engage bfniii directly myself. It looks like a frustrating task.

bfniii · 06-05-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Have you seen those places, bfniii? The description you quoted lacks numbers, but you can't have more than a few dozens of people + accompanying livestock at such an oasis. The area where vegetation actually flourishes around an oasis is rather small.

On the numbers - what interpretation fits all the population numbers and results in a number that is reasonable considering the climate and other logistical problems, such as size of camp, access to the water, time it would take for the camp to move, etc? A link to a site that does not require registration is OK, but be specific, saying that there are interpretations isn't enough.

it seems that you are implying that i am trying to make my case solely in the oases, which i am not. it is possible that water from an oasis was supplemented with any water they brought plus any water supplied by God. i am saying that they are another piece of information which makes the exodus story less unbelievable.

Johnny Skeptic · 06-05-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

This is quite colorful. the dichotomy of their histories is so profound, the Hebrews must have been terrible copiers. the most notable difference is that the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians whereas the Hyksos ruled Egypt. One of the most interesting aspects of the denouement is that hyksos rule would seemingly facilitate the rise in prominence of non-Egyptians, such as Joseph.

What are your historical sources that the Jews were slaves in Egypt for centuries? In addition, what are your historical sources regarding the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea?

Anat · 06-05-2006, 05:52 PM

bfniii, please give one consistent interpretation of the number of people that left Egypt in the alleged exodus that matches the 2 censi in Numbers and is capable of surviving 38 years in the area of Kadesh Barnea, including accessing water, finding vegetation for flocks and handling hygiene issues and also capable of conquering cities in a blitzkrieg as described in Numbers and Joshua.

Yes, if one follows the Bible they did rely on oases. Nobody can schlep around several decades' water supply (and they didn't expect the trek to last that long anyway), and if God had been providing them with water directly then why the need to camp at oases at all? And why all the complainta about water?

bfniii · 06-07-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

There were no Late Bronze Age walls. Kenyon attempted to say that the Middle Bronze Age walls may stll have been standing in places. However, the Jericho of the period was a small village which reused old tombs instead of cutting new ones. spin

1. the work of kenyon and the italians is not indisputable. someone else will come along and be the new flavor of the month. it's cyclical.
2. even if there weren't walls at that time, there are chronologies that fit that scenario.

Anat · 06-07-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

2. even if there weren't walls at that time, there are chronologies that fit that scenario.

I see. The Israelites built Pi-Rameses in the 13th century BCE, traveled back in time to destroy Jericho and Ai, then waited a few centuries to destroy Hazor and some more decades to destroy Lachish. And Joshua lived through all of that.

Doug Shaver · 06-08-2006, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

someone else will come along and be the new flavor of the month. it's cyclical.

In your fantasies.

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06-02-2006, 07:17 PM	#231
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Bfniii, the plague stories are downright absurd. It is impossible for a magician to turn a rod into a real snake, it is impossible for a magician to turn all the water in a country into blood and it is impossibble for a magician to create frogs. Based on the Exodus story of plagues, magicians and sorcerers have supernatural powers of creation. The book of Exodus is an attempt by some unknown author to fabricate a God which could compete with the awesome power of sorcerers and magicians. The stories are totally ridiculous. There is no lesson to be learnt by reading about the plagues except those of witchcraft.

06-05-2006, 05:52 PM	#237
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	bfniii, please give one consistent interpretation of the number of people that left Egypt in the alleged exodus that matches the 2 censi in Numbers and is capable of surviving 38 years in the area of Kadesh Barnea, including accessing water, finding vegetation for flocks and handling hygiene issues and also capable of conquering cities in a blitzkrieg as described in Numbers and Joshua. Yes, if one follows the Bible they did rely on oases. Nobody can schlep around several decades' water supply (and they didn't expect the trek to last that long anyway), and if God had been providing them with water directly then why the need to camp at oases at all? And why all the complainta about water?

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