Biblo

On the matter of salvation, since salvation is not by works, only in Christianity do we find true salvation. And only in Christianity is the religion true towards salvation because no naturalistic explanation can account for the eyewitness claims.

"Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days" (Gal. 1.18).

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed" (Gal. 2.11).

spin

I didn't talk about salvation. You are witnessing and avoiding the issues. On Gal 1:18 etc., to make this simple for you, my NRSV has Cephas. My NIV footnotes that the Greek text says Cephas. My ASV has Cephas. Only my KJV only mentions Peter and that was because it didn't have access to the oldest manuscripts. Obviously you are using the KJV and are liable to its faults.

Have fun.


spin

Tom Sawyer

What about Greek pantheonism? There are numerous eyewitness claims to the existence of the gods in that religion. Why are you calling those people liars?

Biblo

We know this Cephas to be Peter because he is one of the Pillars, one of the original Apostles.

Biblo

Seeing gods is ethereal and visionary, so they could easily be hallucinations or self-induced, whereas Jesus was a real person.

Amaleq13

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that anyone was ever killed because they witnessed something associated with Jesus or even because they claimed to have witnessed something associated with Jesus. What evidence do you have of this?

Again to my knowledge, the only evidence is that Christians were killed because of what they refused to do (ie display proper reverence for Roman gods or deny being a Christian) rather than what they preached or believed.

Self-delusion. Grief-stricken, guilt-ridden, and generally emotionally traumatized people quite frequently delude themselves into believing all sorts of things and that includes being visited by beloved dead people. It is a naive mistake to confuse the much later stories with any actual claims that might have been made decades before. Paul simply tells us that Jesus appeared to many. He doesn't relate or even suggest anything resembling the grossly physical experiences described in the Gospels.

spin

So now you change your tune.

Why do both the Epistle of the Apostles and Origen say that there were two separate people a Peter and a Cephas??

Here's verse 2 of the EpAp:

2 We, John, Thomas, Peter, Andrew, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Nathanael, Judas Zelotes, and Cephas, write unto the churches of the east and the west, of the north and the south declaring and imparting unto you that which concerneth our Lord Jesus Christ: we do write according as we have seen and heard and touched him, after that he was risen from the dead: and how that he revealed unto us things mighty and wonderful and true.

Both Hebrew names Kefa (Cephas) and Kifa (Caiaphas) will supply the Greek Khfas = Cephas. You can't assume Cephas and Peter are the same just because later texts tell you that they are the same.


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Biblo

John said he was at the crucifixion with the women, Mary Magdalene and the mother of Jesus.

The disciples witnessed what they believed to be Jesus alive from the dead.

People were allowed to worship their own gods just as Christians worshiped the God of the Bible, so they weren't killed for worshiping some god, but because they claimed Jesus was seen alive from the dead with their very own eyes.

I think what you are suggesting is hallucination as a result of grief, but the problem with your theory is that there is no such thing as group hallucinations according to modern psychology.

spin

You believe he was a real person. You also believe that your god is real, just as people of other faiths do. You are incapable of seeing your god and you've only got undatable gospels, a collection of untestable traditions to bolster your belief that Jesus was a real person.


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Biblo

Cephas was one of the Pillars and there is no other original Apostles besides Peter who is called Cephas.