Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BALDUCCI · 06-08-2007, 10:34 AM

Actually, good old wiki does a fairly decent job of following the Son of Man role in the Bible and other local faiths, and makes it very clear it is nothing to do with God having a physical son through impregnating a virgin while disguised as a spirit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man

Chili · 06-08-2007, 10:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Of course it does. Man is created in the image of God and will always be formed after the image of God. This is what makes man basically good and redemption possible.

This is completely irrelevant to the terms as they are used in the NT. You will find a good summary of the meanings and contexts these two different Christological titles in Geza Vermes' Jesus The Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Jiri

But Jesus was not a Jew or he would be a sinner like the rest of them. Jesus was free from the law and from the conviction of sin but carried the sins of the world that he knew and those are the sins that he died for.

Chili · 06-08-2007, 11:24 AM

[QUOTE=BALDUCCI;4520800]

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I would have to find the texts if challenged, but I recall reading "Son of Man" applied to a number of other prophets and biblical personalities. I have seen no evidence that Jewish theology at the time of Jesus would have entertained the idea of God having a physical son. This was stuff adapted from Roman mythology, mithras and other faiths followed in first Century Roman Empire.

No doubt because each and every person who is [re]born from above is "son of man." It is an archetypal reality and a most basic human right that should never be tampered with but be protected and safegaurded by the Church at any cost.

The physical son would be called Lord God who has an identity (or mind) of his own wherein indeed he is God after resurrection. Resurrection is when 'this age' (tied on earth is tied in heaven and loosed on earth is loosed in heaven) is added to our multilevel heaven wherein we have the Thousand Year Reign and thus werein we are God.

Chili · 06-08-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BALDUCCI

Actually, good old wiki does a fairly decent job of following the Son of Man role in the Bible and other local faiths, and makes it very clear it is nothing to do with God having a physical son through impregnating a virgin while disguised as a spirit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man

The virgin concept exist only to distinquish an immaculate conception from a spiritual fornication whereby the son of man is from his mother's womb untimely ripped. This concept is what gives meaning to "many are called but few are chosen."

BALDUCCI · 06-08-2007, 01:14 PM

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But Jesus was not a Jew or he would be a sinner like the rest of them.

All Jews are sinners ? Jesus thought of himself as a Jew, and the only other person I recollect saying Jesus was not a Jew, was Jerry Falwell, who has so sadly taken his leave of us and is now no doubt with the saints. Where do you get the idea that Jesus was not a Jew ? Was he greek ? Or palestinian ?

Chili · 06-08-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BALDUCCI

Quote:

But Jesus was not a Jew or he would be a sinner like the rest of them.

All Jews are sinners ? Jesus thought of himself as a Jew, and the only other person I recollect saying Jesus was not a Jew, was Jerry Falwell, who has so sadly taken his leave of us and is now no doubt with the saints. Where do you get the idea that Jesus was not a Jew ? Was he greek ? Or palestinian ?

Jesus was the reborn Joseph and no longer a Jew unless you think that there actually are Jews in heaven with not even a temple there (Rev.21:22). Rebirth is where religion ends, BALDUCCI, and that is what the Gosples are all about. The funny thing here is that where religion is supposed to end many religions become hyperactive and that is not a good sign.

Joan of Bark · 06-09-2007, 02:56 AM

Honestly, Chili, I never can make heads or tails out of your posts. Which Joseph are you referring to? And how do you know there are no temples in heaven?

Amaleq13 · 06-09-2007, 08:58 AM

Personal exchange split off and locked here

mike.davis · 06-09-2007, 09:41 AM

In the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) Jesus does not claim to be divine, but some English translations give the impression that he did by mistranslating his response to the Sanhedrin's question, “Are you then the son of God?” (Luke 22:70) The literal translation of the Greek text of Jesus’s response is, “You say that I am,” which is how the Revised Standard Version and King James Version translate it. But the NIV has “You are right in saying I am.” And the New American Standard Bible, which is normally a very literal translation, has “Yes I am.” So you have to be careful which translation you’re using to answer these types of questions. KJV and RSV tend to be the most literal and correct of the popular translations into English.

xunzian · 06-09-2007, 10:43 AM

Some fundies discussed the topic here. Overall, I think they made a convincing argument that Jesus did indeed intend to say that he was God.

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The Jews understood Jesus claimed to be God
John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus himself allowed himself to be called God
John 20:27-28
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus allowed himself to be worshipped yet stated continually that we should worship no-one but God. Use a bit of logic and you'll see where this leads.

Matthew 2:2
and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

There is also evidence for belief in the trinity by the Apostles:

Quote:

KJV, 1 Timothy 3:16 wrote:
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
KJV, Colossians 1:14-19 wrote:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

The apostles certainly believed in the trinity.

KJV, Mark 2:5-10 wrote:
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy

Is Jesus hinting at something here?
Only god can forgive sin, and there he is forgiving sin.
At the very least, one can admit that Jesus had a lot of authority.

KJV, Mark 9:42 wrote:
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Jesus says it's ok to believe (worship?) in him.

NIV, Luke 24:44-49 wrote:
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

He was at the very least the Messiah by his own confession. Yet notice in verse 49 he says that he (Jesus) would send the holy spirit and he does not say god would send the spirit, not the father, but "I".

The entire gospel of John appears to be a defense of the divinity of Christ... of course, many dismiss it as a unreliable gospel.

06-09-2007, 09:41 AM	#49
mike.davis Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: St. Paul, MN Posts: 9	Did Jesus claim to be divine? In the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) Jesus does not claim to be divine, but some English translations give the impression that he did by mistranslating his response to the Sanhedrin's question, “Are you then the son of God?” (Luke 22:70) The literal translation of the Greek text of Jesus’s response is, “You say that I am,” which is how the Revised Standard Version and King James Version translate it. But the NIV has “You are right in saying I am.” And the New American Standard Bible, which is normally a very literal translation, has “Yes I am.” So you have to be careful which translation you’re using to answer these types of questions. KJV and RSV tend to be the most literal and correct of the popular translations into English.

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06-08-2007, 10:34 AM	#41
BALDUCCI Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: scotland Posts: 365	Actually, good old wiki does a fairly decent job of following the Son of Man role in the Bible and other local faiths, and makes it very clear it is nothing to do with God having a physical son through impregnating a virgin while disguised as a spirit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man

06-09-2007, 02:56 AM	#47
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Honestly, Chili, I never can make heads or tails out of your posts. Which Joseph are you referring to? And how do you know there are no temples in heaven?

06-09-2007, 08:58 AM	#48
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Personal exchange split off and locked here

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