Chris Weimer

Not to derail, but more and more of my research tends to show that Mohammed just may have been dependent on Jesus existing...

lpetrich

No, only that the Gospels cannot be 100% historical.

But if there was a historical Jesus Christ, how much of what's in the Gospels was correct about him? That's something that's been endlessly argued about in historical-Jesus scholarship.

Malachi151

Certainly, which is the good thing about JM scholarship. In fact, even if there was some historical Muhammad, Islam depends on the validity of Judaism and the existence, so showing that there was no Moses and no Jesus also invalidates Islam, even if there was a Muhammad.

Toto

I attended the meeting. As I suspected, its purpose was at least in part fundraising.

R. Joseph Hoffmann gave a very entertaining multimedia overview of the history of Jesus studies. He said that the Jesus Project is not a successor to the Jesus Seminar, which is its own organization, but there is some overlap in participants.

The idea of this Jesus Project is to take seriously the question of whether Jesus existed, rather than assuming that it cannot be investigated historically. Hoffmann said there were at least four scholars who had lost academic posts after writing about the issue of Jesus' existence as an open question.

On the other hand, Hoffmann made it clear that the committee is not being stacked in favor of mythicism, and he didn't think that mythicism was required to criticize religion. But he did say that Earl Doherty would be part of the procedings.

The committee does not expect to rely on any dramatic new discoveries. They will just sift through the evidence that it available.

However, the Jesus Project will be structured differently from the Jesus Seminar. It will have a limited membership, will last for 5 years, and will NOT vote with colored marbles. It will produce a report: if the committee can reach unanimity, there will be one report, otherwise, there will be majority and dissenting reports.

The JP will meet twice a year, and meetings will be open to the public, although the public will not actually take part in the deliberations.

Then came the pitch for money. For $10,000 (payable over 3 years and tax deductible to the extent provided by law), you can be a Benefactor. In addition to getting various perks - copies of all official products - you would be promised a chateaux in heaven and all your sins would be forgiven. (general laughter). For $5,000, you can be a sponsor (with a small bugalow in heaven and 5 major sins forgiven), for $1,500 you can be a patron, for $500 an associate, and for $100 a student associate. They passed out a handout as to how that breaks down on a monthy or daily basis (students would be paying $3 a month.)

One problem with the Jesus Project is that there is already a Jesus Project run by some Christians, and that's what comes up first on Google:

Check out The Jesus Project, where you'll find tonnes of cool ministry tools like message boards, concert listings, instant messaging, seminars and ...
www.jesusproject.com

There is also very little online about the CFI Jesus Project. CSER has its website here.

This show and fundraising pitch will be repeated in other cities. I recommend the show; it is entertaining and informative. And Hoffmann impresses me as someone who is approaching this with an open mind, as an interesting question of history, not as an ideological battle.

Ted Hoffman

Thanks for the update Toto.

PhilosopherJay

I was talking to a man from Pakistan at a party last night. He told me that after watching John Travolta play the character of Tony Manero in Saturday Night Fever in 1978, he bought an airplane ticket to America, went to live in Brooklyn, and started taking dance lessons. Fiction can obviously influence people's lives.

As a kid, two of the television programs that I watched on a regular basis were the Lone Ranger and Superman. As an adult, I look back and realize that my concept of what a hero/good man does in a given situation is heavily influenced by what I watched these television heroes do. I assume that many millions of other kids were also influenced by them.

As far as another point in the thread that contradictions in narrative suggest non-fiction, I am skeptical. The woman who played Lois Lane in Superman was replaced after the first couple of years. The actor who played the Lone Ranger was also replaced by another actor for a number of episodes. Watching these episodes we see definite contradictions with other episodes. These contradictions hardly demonstrate that there was a real Lois Lane or a real Lone Ranger.


Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Toto

The Vatican is already running scared.

Catholic News

Toto

Brian Flemming on the Jesus Project

GakuseiDon

What are they running scared about, IYO? They secretly fear that there is no historical Jesus? If so, is this not paranoia? I know you don't like the word, but that's the only thing I can see driving such comments. And speaking of paranoia:

This is what Flemming writes:

This "testable hypothesis" angle is a relatively radical approach only because in the past academics studying Jesus were largely content to obey the theologians and clergy who demanded that they never investigate Jesus of Nazareth's actual existence.

"Demanded that they never investigate Jesus's actual existence"??? Sheer paranoia! It's like creationists who lose their teaching jobs questioning evolution, and put it down to them questioning evolution rather than them promoting sloppy ideas in the first place.

It would be good to see a list of people who were sacked, and what they were actually promoting.

Flemming continues:

In the past, many scholars have had their careers ended for violating this taboo. Thus, the launch of the Jesus Project represents a serious blow for science against blind faith.

... I have to wonder what the response will be if the Jesus Project doesn't come out in favour of a mythical Jesus. I think I can guess though...

Am I the only one to see the paranoia that permeates the response to any criticism of a mythical Jesus?

Toto

Perhaps they are afraid that people will stop believing that there was a historical Jesus, whether or not there was one. If they stop believing that, they might also stop believing in a lot of other things that prop up the structure of the Catholic Church.

Or perhaps they're just afraid that people will start thinking for themselves.

Hoffmann said there were at least 4, but it only takes one to scare off the others. And, of course, they were promoting heresy of one sort or another. Biblical studies is not a bastion of free thought.

The Jesus Project is not guaranteed to come out in favor of a mythical Jesus. I think that most of the people on the Project are either historicists like Tabor or tending that way. It is the process that is important - treating this like a testable hypothesis. I would not be surprized if the final report said that there was a minimal amount of evidence that could be interpreted to support a historical Jesus, but that nothing definite can be known about him, and that the evidence is consistent with but does not require that Christianity started around a mythical Jesus. That would not make anyone who's career depends on Jesus existing very happy, but it would be more honest that what you read now.