Toto

James and John are explicitly named the Sons of Thunder in Mark 3:17

James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder);

Juststeve

Surely the text indicates that Jesus named the sons of Zebedee the sons of thunder.

I'm not sure what the thread starters point is about that. On the assumption that Jesus didn't exist, and therefore the giving of a nickname was not something that actually happened, what next? Are we looking for some hidden meaning in what Mark wrote? If so we need to ask what was Mark trying to convey to his readers by saying that Jesus named two of his followers sons of thunder..

What exactly does the thread starter think Mark was trying to say? Surely Mark isn’t trying to tell his audience that Jesus, the son of the one living God, is identifying two of his followers as the sons of the God Jupiter. Is the point that Mark is telling us Jesus was a closet polytheist? Doesn’t seem likely that either the real Jesus, or the one Mark made up, would be dabbling in polytheism. If Mark made Jesus up it seems unlikely that he would be dropping hints about his polytheism, bad for the brand you know. So what pray tell can be inferred from the thread starters observation? Does it lead anywhere at all?

Steve

P.S.

I’m agnostic as to whether Jesus had among his followers sons of Zebedee or whether he nicknamed them, so don’t ask about that.

S.

dizzy

Acts 17:28

for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Phaenomena, by Aratus

From Zeus let us begin; him do we mortals never leave unnamed; full of Zeus are all the streets and all the market-places of men; full is the sea and the havens thereof; always we all have need of Zeus. For we are also his offspring; and he in his kindness unto men giveth favourable signs and wakeneth the people to work, reminding them of livelihood.

yalla

Nice catch dizzy.

Juststeve

Dizzy:

I was aware of Aratus, my study bible tipped me off, but what do you think that has to do with Jesus' naming of James and John? I just don't see what Mark was getting at. Do you?

Steve

Toto

The Sons of Thunder were the Gemini, Castor and Pollux, also called the Dioscuri. This should be a goldmine for the astrotheologists, but I've never seen any deep meaning derived from it, other than that it is related to twins, and twins are a common theme among many religions.

The classic work is Boanerges by Rendell Harris, available here online. Harris is also the author of The Dioscuri in Christian Legend, and the Cult of the Heavenly Twins, which are mainly concerned with Thomas or Didymus as the twin of Jesus.

For literalists like JP Holding, it is always possible that Jesus gave two of his followers a playful nickname derived from Hellenic mythology.

Vridar notes this as a bit of trivia:

dizzy

No I don't. The best guess I have is that early Christians and Jews associated Jupiter with Yahweh, and the writer of Mark may have been making a joke at the expense of the disciples.

But I really have no idea. The only people who seem to pick up on the connection are those with heavily symbolic understandings of the gospel story. I find heavy symbolism hard to read, so I can't comment on how it fits into all the various astrological frameworks.

spamandham

"Sons of Thunder" is an unambiguous reference to prodigy of Jupiter. Only a fundamentalist would deny a simple and straightforward observation.

James and John offer to bring down lightning from heaven - a task exactly congruent with the previous observation that they are sons of Jupiter. Only a fundamentalist would deny this.

The alternative fundy-esque explanation for these are pulled out of the backside, based on pure speculation combined with wishful thinking.

dizzy

Spam, what do you think of the idea that this was just a way to make the disciples look as though they - yet again - failed to understand? I know that's more Mark's cup of tea, but perhaps Luke was telling the punchline to his predecessor's joke?

Juststeve

dizzy:

I would be surprised if many first century Jews associated Jupiter with Yahweh, but I suppose some of the pagans who converted to Christianity might. That might be a good hypothesis to work from.

Steve