Freethought & Rationalism Archive

River · 06-14-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

First off, River, if Islam is such a super-feminist religion, then where are the Islamic clergywomen? Where are the female mullahs, imams, etc.? Lots of other religions have plenty of female clergy, so why not Islam?

And consider the freethinker community -- there have been lots of notable female freethinkers over the decades, and some very notable ones today. Our site has several female mods and admins, and some notable female participants, like QueenofSwords.

Compare what Aisha had done and what QueenofSwords has done -- had Aisha ever composed any original work, as QoS has done? Anything like QoS's Nutwatches?

Islam is not a patriarchal religion....it is not exactly a feminist religion...atleast not in the way that we would define "feminist". Allah is neither male nor female . And Islam never ever calls "Allah" , Father/(Abb)...we are careful when it comes to calling our lord as such. One of Allah's titles is "Rahman" which can be translated as "the womb"...so we recognize that G-d is not exclusively male as other Abrahamic relgions seem to advertise.

Aishya the wife of the Prophet is an excellent example of early Islam's regard for woman. She participated in a war and is also an important collector and transmitter of a large amount of Hadiths. Similarly the Prophet's first wife Khadija who passed away during the lifetime of the Prophet was Muhammad(pbuh) bussiness partner and financial coequal.

Also, Islamic thought has always stated that females have sexual urges and drives similar to males....even at a time the rest of the Christian world had denied females their sexuality...stating that only males had such sexual drives.

---River

River · 06-14-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mughal

Nastiness is in islam not in people who inform us about it.

Inb warraq has his own site http://www.secularislam.org

Regards and all the best.

Now, it has been commented earlier that some of my remarks were ..."harsh"/"defensive (?)".... I guess, you might say.... but like I've said earlier those that concur with Ibn Warraq are here to undermine the very foundation of Islam. I hope you can understand how I take it being a follower of Islam...which so many people look at as some sort of draconian monolith....

Mughal:" Nastiness is in Islam....not in ....."

---River

River · 06-14-2004, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mughal

dear reprise,

greetings.

please say what you have to say on the matter and avoid telling others what they should or should not say about islam.

Reprise has the right to freely speak on this topic as he chooses. I also believe the OP was posting some kind of spam...There was absolutely no attempt on the part of the OP to express himself/herself.

---River

premjan · 06-14-2004, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

Hey, have you ever seen those that praise "Ibn Warraqs'" works....these people aren't what one would deem objective....they have alway endorsed such writings...purely to undermine Islam.....If you do a background check you can see the hatred that boils from under the chest of these ....

i.e Daniel Pipes for many years have said really disgusting things about Muslims...He even visited my school....only lately has he tried to present himself in a more subtle fashion....Do you think I like being called an " Islamist"....what the heck is an " Islamist" some made up terminology????

----River

sad to hear that you are being smeared. Naturally in real life, there are conflicts of interest. Each religion represents a unique point of view, often not marriageable with any other point of view. If you espouse Islam, you may expect hatred from some quarters, including some agnostics and atheists. Freedom of belief is only as long as your beliefs are innocuous to others, unfortunately...

Ben Willott · 06-15-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

No .....Islam is inherently not a patriarchal relgion.....Muslim countries in general have strayed away from Islam...and soon their existing regimes will be replaced with something better.----River

11:57. "But if ye turn your backs, then I have conveyed to you that wherewith I was sent to you; and my Lord will replace you with another people. Ye cannot harm (frustrate) Him at all; verily, my Lord is Guardian over all things!"

7:34. Every nation (or community) has its appointed term, and when their appointed term is completed they cannot delay it an hour, nor can they advance it.

Ah, the old no-true-islamic-state ploy. So once again faith can never fail humanity, only humanity can fail faith. I shudder to imagine the fundamentalist state you have in mind, River.

As regards patriarchies (A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children) kindly address the following quotations from here :

Quote:

228 And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Quote:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

You would have to be brain damaged not to get the hint, according to allah men are superior to women and in charge of them. Your thoughts, River?

River · 06-15-2004, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Willott

I shudder to imagine the fundamentalist state you have in mind, River.

Okay then...go shudder.

--River

Ben Willott · 06-15-2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

Okay then...go shudder.

--River

Touche, but I did ask you to respond to those quotations from the quran regarding patriarchalism.

River · 06-15-2004, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Willott

Touche, but I did ask you to respond to those quotations from the quran regarding patriarchalism.

No ...I will not respond to you...you have called me a FUNDAMENTALIST....

For this ....

GO SHUDDER

---River

Ben Willott · 06-15-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by River

No ...I will not respond to you...you have called me a FUNDAMENTALIST....

For this ....

GO SHUDDER

---River

Not in as many words, but if I have offended you, I apologise. I am honestly curious about your assertion that islam is not patriarchal. Can you justify that assertion?

River · 06-15-2004, 07:31 PM

Before the advent of Islam ....female infanticide was common in the Arabian peninsula as well as the Indian Subcontinent.... Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) influence pervaded...and female infanticide was strictly prohibited.

"And when the female infant buried alive is asked for what sin was she killed." (81:8-9).

"…Shall he keep it (his daughter) with disgrace or bury it (alive) in the dust? Now surely evil is what they judge." (16:59)

Also, one must note that numerous Muslim scholars do not believe that the hijab is mandated. It is sunnah ( recommended) but is not something that can be enforced. The custom of veiling is actually in essence a Jewish custom that somehow crept into Islamic practice. Quite a few women don the Hijab ...for they want to emulate the Mother Mary whom the Quran gives the title " Mother of all Nations".

Also, one must also note that both Adam and Eve were exiled in Islam, and blamed jointly and also forgiven jointly. This is quite different from the Christian depiction where Eve bears most of the burden.

Now let us look at some Hadiths that help interpret those Quranic verses in context....

The Messenger of Allah said:

O People! it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.....

The Qur'an states: "...But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good." (Qur'an 4: l9).

Prophet Muhammad. (P) said: "The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family."

"The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives." (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

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06-15-2004, 07:31 PM	#30
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Before the advent of Islam ....female infanticide was common in the Arabian peninsula as well as the Indian Subcontinent.... Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) influence pervaded...and female infanticide was strictly prohibited. "And when the female infant buried alive is asked for what sin was she killed." (81:8-9). "…Shall he keep it (his daughter) with disgrace or bury it (alive) in the dust? Now surely evil is what they judge." (16:59) Also, one must note that numerous Muslim scholars do not believe that the hijab is mandated. It is sunnah ( recommended) but is not something that can be enforced. The custom of veiling is actually in essence a Jewish custom that somehow crept into Islamic practice. Quite a few women don the Hijab ...for they want to emulate the Mother Mary whom the Quran gives the title " Mother of all Nations". Also, one must also note that both Adam and Eve were exiled in Islam, and blamed jointly and also forgiven jointly. This is quite different from the Christian depiction where Eve bears most of the burden. Now let us look at some Hadiths that help interpret those Quranic verses in context.... The Messenger of Allah said: O People! it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste..... The Qur'an states: "...But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good." (Qur'an 4: l9). Prophet Muhammad. (P) said: "The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family." "The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives." (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

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