Freethought & Rationalism Archive

premjan · 08-01-2007, 05:40 AM

For instance - Buddhism generally elevates the concept of nirvana (unblemished conscious experience) whereas philosophical Hinduism a bit more the concept of jnana (knowledge or insight). The various yogas - karma elevates the consensus of right action (dharma), whereas bhakti elevates the consensus of right feeling (bhakti). Science is a consensus of what exists and what to believe (metaphysics and epistemology).

As determining consensus reality is the goal of science, really religions are partial attempts at consensus, so they are not so far from science.

aupmanyav · 08-02-2007, 07:08 AM

Actually I would say they are the same, unless you are talking of a false religion. It is not important as to what God said or dictated to a messenger.

premjan · 08-02-2007, 07:15 AM

I guess by focusing on artifacts such as a holy book, the intent of a religion may become lost.

William · 08-02-2007, 04:16 PM

I don't really understand your claim, are you saying the goal of religions/philosophies is to develop a social consensus regarding something?

I think the only similarity between religion/science are the attempts at coming to a consensus as to some objective description of reality (this might be what you were saying?)...

The goal of religions hardly stops there though, so I couldn't agree that in-and-of themselves religion and science have similar goals... Though many intelligent persons do attempt to bridge that gap.

aupmanyav · 08-02-2007, 09:59 PM

The goal of religion is to make it possible for a person to adjust to conditions of life, and give hope to him/her, distract the person's attention to something else rather than his/her surroundings, make it possible for society to function. How is that?

premjan · 08-02-2007, 11:14 PM

The problems with religion originate from the fact that they are forging the wrong kind of consensus - one that is not flexible enough to accommodate everyone and is forced to turn Procustean as a result.

William · 08-03-2007, 02:58 PM

mhm... The fact that many (if not all?) religions became "culturized" added fuel to the fire of this problem.

premjan · 08-03-2007, 09:52 PM

Though I suppose a religion also may choose deliberately to exclude certain others.

premjan · 08-13-2007, 04:48 AM

Can we perhaps classify religions by the means they use to achieve consensus? I think for instance that Christianity for instance tries to portray the impossibly heroic act, which gains sympathy love. Islam on the other hand, fear of punishment from a capricious deity. Judaism perhaps loyalty to a universal father.

figuer · 08-13-2007, 04:57 AM

Not all philosophies have the goal of establishing social consensus. Some pertain simply to gaining an understanding of the world, independent of social consequences.

There can be individualistic anti social religions also.

The fundamental difference is that religion is about a establishing a relationship with the self or a god, while philosophy is more about acquisition of knowledge.

08-01-2007, 05:40 AM	#1
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Social consensus as the goal of religions and philosophies For instance - Buddhism generally elevates the concept of nirvana (unblemished conscious experience) whereas philosophical Hinduism a bit more the concept of jnana (knowledge or insight). The various yogas - karma elevates the consensus of right action (dharma), whereas bhakti elevates the consensus of right feeling (bhakti). Science is a consensus of what exists and what to believe (metaphysics and epistemology). As determining consensus reality is the goal of science, really religions are partial attempts at consensus, so they are not so far from science.

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08-02-2007, 07:08 AM	#2
aupmanyav Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 18,926	Actually I would say they are the same, unless you are talking of a false religion. It is not important as to what God said or dictated to a messenger.

08-02-2007, 07:15 AM	#3
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I guess by focusing on artifacts such as a holy book, the intent of a religion may become lost.

08-02-2007, 04:16 PM	#4
William Moderator - NAR Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern Japan Posts: 2,312	I don't really understand your claim, are you saying the goal of religions/philosophies is to develop a social consensus regarding something? I think the only similarity between religion/science are the attempts at coming to a consensus as to some objective description of reality (this might be what you were saying?)... The goal of religions hardly stops there though, so I couldn't agree that in-and-of themselves religion and science have similar goals... Though many intelligent persons do attempt to bridge that gap.

08-02-2007, 09:59 PM	#5
aupmanyav Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 18,926	The goal of religion is to make it possible for a person to adjust to conditions of life, and give hope to him/her, distract the person's attention to something else rather than his/her surroundings, make it possible for society to function. How is that?

08-02-2007, 11:14 PM	#6
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	The problems with religion originate from the fact that they are forging the wrong kind of consensus - one that is not flexible enough to accommodate everyone and is forced to turn Procustean as a result.

08-03-2007, 02:58 PM	#7
William Moderator - NAR Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Northern Japan Posts: 2,312	mhm... The fact that many (if not all?) religions became "culturized" added fuel to the fire of this problem.

08-03-2007, 09:52 PM	#8
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Though I suppose a religion also may choose deliberately to exclude certain others.

08-13-2007, 04:48 AM	#9
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Can we perhaps classify religions by the means they use to achieve consensus? I think for instance that Christianity for instance tries to portray the impossibly heroic act, which gains sympathy love. Islam on the other hand, fear of punishment from a capricious deity. Judaism perhaps loyalty to a universal father.

08-13-2007, 04:57 AM	#10
figuer Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico Posts: 7,984	Not all philosophies have the goal of establishing social consensus. Some pertain simply to gaining an understanding of the world, independent of social consequences. There can be individualistic anti social religions also. The fundamental difference is that religion is about a establishing a relationship with the self or a god, while philosophy is more about acquisition of knowledge.

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