Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 02-01-2007, 05:37 AM

What with Paul's "glass darkly", Revelations images of the perfection of heaven and similar, I assume it is accepted that the view that this real world is imperfect and heaven is the real world was widely accepted.

So, has the new testament been seen as a neo platonist story of how the perfect heaven came to earth and sorted us out?

GakuseiDon · 02-01-2007, 06:36 AM

Strictly speaking, neoplatonism was a product of the Third Century CE. I think you mean "middle platonism" or "neopythagoreanism". "Neoplatonists" believed that God was transcendent, beyond the universe, while "middle platonists" placed God above the firmament, within the "universe". That's how I understand it, so apologies if I have got the nuance wrong. There was a lot more to the philosophies than just the cosmological aspects though.

What do you mean by "heaven is the real world"? Can you cite references from writers of that time that described it as such?

Malachi151 · 02-01-2007, 06:37 AM

I haven't seen it phrased quite like that, but many people acknowledge the Platonic influences on Hellenistic Judaism in general, and on the Gospel of John and in the idea of Paul in particular.

Interesting point though.

Steve Weiss · 02-01-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I haven't seen it phrased quite like that, but many people acknowledge the Platonic influences on Hellenistic Judaism in general, and on the Gospel of John and in the idea of Paul in particular.

Interesting point though.

In the West the myths that gave rise to Greek mythology and Judeo-Christian fantasies condensed into the bizarre book called the bible came from ancient Egypt. There was a lot of cross-fertilization and variations on a theme, but all of it is pure fictional nonsense designed to manipulate and subvert one's rational mind.

Clivedurdle · 02-01-2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Strictly speaking, neoplatonism was a product of the Third Century CE. I think you mean "middle platonism" or "neopythagoreanism". "Neoplatonists" believed that God was transcendent, beyond the universe, while "middle platonists" placed God above the firmament, within the "universe". That's how I understand it, so apologies if I have got the nuance wrong. There was a lot more to the philosophies than just the cosmological aspects though.

What do you mean by "heaven is the real world"? Can you cite references from writers of that time that described it as such?

I am referring to the classic platonic story of the cave. Our life now is incomplete, living in the shadows of the cave. The real world is the heavenly one, the light of the world, the presense of god. I have quoted a few above from the new testament. All the stuff about new heaven and earth, groaning are similar.

It does all look like stories written from the perspective of heaven.

When the Bible was put together, they must have used criteria to judge what goes in or not, they probably edited with assumptions in mind. Were these part of the thinking?

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

Clivedurdle · 02-01-2007, 12:38 PM

Is the classic platonist formulation "I am the way the truth and the life."?

Maybe that is the killer comment that Jesus did not exist!

02-01-2007, 05:37 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Plato and Jesus What with Paul's "glass darkly", Revelations images of the perfection of heaven and similar, I assume it is accepted that the view that this real world is imperfect and heaven is the real world was widely accepted. So, has the new testament been seen as a neo platonist story of how the perfect heaven came to earth and sorted us out?

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02-01-2007, 06:36 AM	#2
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Strictly speaking, neoplatonism was a product of the Third Century CE. I think you mean "middle platonism" or "neopythagoreanism". "Neoplatonists" believed that God was transcendent, beyond the universe, while "middle platonists" placed God above the firmament, within the "universe". That's how I understand it, so apologies if I have got the nuance wrong. There was a lot more to the philosophies than just the cosmological aspects though. What do you mean by "heaven is the real world"? Can you cite references from writers of that time that described it as such?

02-01-2007, 06:37 AM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I haven't seen it phrased quite like that, but many people acknowledge the Platonic influences on Hellenistic Judaism in general, and on the Gospel of John and in the idea of Paul in particular. Interesting point though.

02-01-2007, 12:38 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is the classic platonist formulation "I am the way the truth and the life."? Maybe that is the killer comment that Jesus did not exist!

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