andrewcriddle

(This is from bibliographies not articles I've read myself.)

On the question as to whether the author of 1 Peter knew the written gospels one could see E. Best NTS 16 1969-70 pps 95-113 and R H Gundry NTS 13 1966-67 pps 336-50 and Biblica 55 1974 pps 211-32

There is also Gerhard Maier 'Jesustradition inm 1. Petrusbrief' in David Wenham ed 'The Jesus Tradition Outside the Gospels' Sheffield JSOT 1984 pps 85-128. But although this is apparently a thorough and recent analysis it is a/ in German b/ regards the Apostle Peter as the probable author of 1 Peter.

Andrew Criddle

Yuri Kuchinsky

YURI:
Well, Peter, there's an existing consensus that both Paul and Kephas died as martyrs, and this is consistent with a HJ.

OTOH their dying as martyrs doesn't really seem to be consistent with a MJ. So this is the issue that I'd like to see clarified.

Hi, Peter,

I use the standard definition that can be found in any dictionary.

But I didn't claim that they were martyrs. I merely said that there's an existing consensus that they were martyrs, which is consistent with a HJ.

If they weren't martyrs, then we're still left with the question of how they got their reputation as martyrs.

Best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky

YURI:
So who was it that set the precedent for martyrdom,
according to you, and under what circumstances?

And so, you're unable to explain the genesis of Christianity...

But how late is "later"?

The details are important, if you want to present a coherent picture of Christian origins. If you don't have a coherent picture of Christian origins, then how can you be so sure that there was no HJ?

YURI:
I don't accept that Mk was the earliest gospel.

Here you are,

The Originality of Luke
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/earluke.htm

Regards,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky

I think you're wrong. Many contemporary examples of Christians can be cited who die for their faith.

For example, the Jehovah Witnesses are refusing medical treatment and die because of their faith.

Yuri.

Amaleq13

martyr:

1) One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

2) One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

Yuri's objection seems to result from a significant lack of understanding of Doherty's thesis. In fact, I strongly suspect he has never bothered to actually read Doherty's website, let alone his book despite having the apparent goal of addressing "prominent mythicists". If he had an adequate understanding of Doherty, he would never have taken such a misguided approach.

The definition of a "martyr" is clearly not inconsistent with belief in a Savior sacrificed in a spiritual realm especially if that spiritual realm was considered more "real" than life on earth. This sort of belief is central to Doherty's argument yet Yuri persists in completely ignoring it.

Toto

Well that's easy. The early church created myths of martyrs, as current Christians have created the myth that George Washington was a Christian.

But let's get back to that consensus. I doubt that there is a consensus of historians that there is historical evidence for the martyrdom of Peter and/or Paul. After all, their martyrdom is not reported in the canonical texts, but is explicitly and luridly described in various untrustworthy non-canonical romances of the period. We have no eyewitness testimony, no records, even less evidence than we have for Jesus' trial. Why are you so confident that there is such a consensus? What would the basis of that consensus be??

Yuri Kuchinsky

OK, Toto, so the current Christians wanted to see George Washington in their own image, so they've created this myth of George Washington as a Christian.

So are you now saying that the early Christians created Paul and Kephas in their own image as martyrs?

But where did they get this image, then?

Thus, once again, we're back to the question of precedent.

Or perhaps are you saying that the current Christians created the myth of 'George Washington the Christian' as a deliberate deception?

The logical extension of this is that Christianity was, from its very beginnings, a deliberate deception! Is this what you're saying?

It's not really so important in this case if Paul and Kephas really died as martyrs. What cannot be doubted OTOH is that they received their reputation as martyrs at a very early time. So I just want to clarify the mechanism of how they got this reputation, that's all.

Regards,

Yuri.

Johann_Kaspar

"a very early time"... That is? Before 888?

By the way, literature characters never die. There is no evidence that there was an historical "Paul", or an historical "Peter". If the evidence for Joshua is scarce and not conclusive, the evidence for both "martyrs" is nil.

Moreover "Peter" dies already in the Acts.

Toto

It's interesting how you add language to what I said. Let me close some loopholes.

The early church created the myth of its founders as martyrs for its own political and esthetic purposes, to sanctify its founders and encourage Christians who were threatened with martyrdom by Roman emperors to keep the faith; American Christians have created the myth that George Washington was a Christian for their own political purposes. Mythmaking is a universal human trait and we would be surprised not to find evidence of it.

I don't think the description of "deliberate deception" is very useful. I'm sure that Eusebius thought he was doing the Lord's work when he spin-doctored Christian history, or added things that should really have been true. You can see the same process at work in the politics of any current nation.

Could you put a date on when their received the reputations as martyrs? What documents do you rely on, and how do you date them?

Yuri Kuchinsky

But why were they threatened with martyrdom?

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how and when the tradition of martyrdom originated.

That some Christians in later times falsified some of their history is not in question AFAIAC. Yet this, it itself, doesn't really do much to explain how and when the tradition of martyrdom originated.

But I thought that it was you, as a mythicist, who was going to provide some of these details for us...

Yuri.