Mageth

Hold on a minute there: if they were "perfect", what "perfect" part of them allowed them to "develop weaknesses and, in time, break down"?

Instructions are provided for machines because the machines are not perfect, and will break down if not used properly and maintained properly. A perfect machine wouldn't need any instructions for using or maintaining it properly - a perfect machine would never break down.

If A&E were perfect, they could not have become imperfect, as there would be no defect in them to allow them to become imperfect.

Sheesh, the hoops theists jump through to try to get the Bible off the hook. This is Pretzel Apologetics.

Jack the Bodiless

May:

As I have already noted, there is no support in Genesis for this doctrine.

The Bible is clear: A&E eventually died because God denied immortality to them, and he did this for selfish reasons, to eliminate potential rivals.

Not because of "sin" degrading them. Neither fruit is described as having any directly harmful effect: they are both supernaturally beneficial. Nor does the mere decision to disobey God have any directly harmful effect: not in the original story, at least.

may

[QUOTE=Mageth]Hold on a minute there: if they were "perfect", what "perfect" part of them allowed them to "develop weaknesses and, in time, break down"?


. For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect� is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God.

Other perfection relative. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute. (Compare Ps 119:96.) That is, a thing is “perfect� according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when “completion� has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.—Ro 12:2;

Mageth

This is rather amusing, really. God allegedly says in Gen 2:17: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Then, in Gen 3:4-5 the serpent says "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

They eat the fruit, and they do not die, but their eyes are indeed opened, as the serpent said.

God lied; the serpent didn't.

To try to get around this, apologists claim one or both of "God didn't mean they would literally die on that day" or "God didn't mean 'day' when he said 'day'". In other words, God lied, or at best was being rather deceitful, not revealing the whole truth. It doesn't really get God off the hook.

BTW, here's the definition for the Hebrew word used in Gen 1-2 that's translated "die":

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...6605-9445.html

Nothing there about slowly wasting away over 900+ years.

Jedi Mind Trick

You know,
this is probably one of the most insightful things I have read about this myth. I can combine what you wrote here, JackTB, with things I've been reading about similar "original fall" myths from the ANE and see that they do share a great deal. This really puts into perspective for me the cultural/theological(?) disconnect that exists between the people who originated this story and how it has been historically understood by xianity.

Mageth

Here we go again. Now "perfect" doesn't mean "perfect".

Other perfection relative. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute. (Compare Ps 119:96.) That is, a thing is “perfect� according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when “completion� has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.—Ro 12:2;[/QUOTE]

OK, by that logic, God should have had nothing to complain about when A&E ate the fruit, because the "flaw" that allowed them to do so must have been a part of the "[perfection] according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer." A&E's transgression had to have been a part of God's design. And they would still have been "perfect" according to your definition after eating the frut.

may

Hi ,number 4 on the list is the correct meaning , it was a premature death ,A&Ecould have lived forever .

gregor

Then why the tree of eternal life?

Mathetes

The problem with defending that the death was "spiritual" is that any prophecy can always be fulfilled "spiritually", no matter how much it failed in the real world.

Jesus is called the Christ. Why on hell is he even called Christ? Christ means annointed. When was Jesus annointed by the High Priest? Never, of course. But, see, he was "spiritually annointed" by God. Aaah, that solves it. We have no freaking way of knowing whether this did or did not happen, but the Christian apologist has a way to sneak out.

The Messiah was going to be the king of Israel and rule and judge the nations. In reality Israel was a non-existant as a state for 2,000 years, and these days it still does not have a king. But, you know, Christ is the "spiritual king" of Israel, and "spiritually judges the nations". Oh, goody.

Jesus said "I will destroy the temple and build it in three days". But, you know, he was talking "spiritually", of the three days he would be dead and then resurrect. Which we cannot confirm anyway, because all we have to prove it is hearsay. There you go.

I predict that I will win a million in the lottery next week. If I do, good. If I don't, I will claim that I saw the Virgin Mary playing Half Life 2, and that I "spiritually won" a fortune.

I also predict that it will rain "spiritually" in the Bay Area this weekend.

Mageth

Only a Christian Apologist could assert that death at 900+ years was "premature".