Rick Sumner

Without having specific examples, you don't have a case. For example, do the seven churches of Asia in Revelations reflect astrotheology? How about the 7 things God hates (Prov.6)? What about the 7 heads of the Beast?

On all three of these we can safely say no. This is the kind of silly comparisons you open yourself up to when you try and make generalities. If you want to make a case, you need to make a case, not paint with broad strokes and call it overcomplicated to deny connection.

Let me know when you've done so.

You're going to compare a social science to quantum mechanics? Really?

It means that you can't declare it too "complex" to deny it. Which is what you've done.

And bravo. Except that nobody was denying it.

This is hedging. The claims made have been specific, the claims made by Acharya S. and endorsed by Robert Price even more specific. Even your claims about the number 7, or number 3, were specific. Now we fall back to hedging our bets.

<edit>

And here's where we start running into some confusion. The site you linked actually mentions the Enuma anu Enlil tablets, but notes that they date from the second millenium BCE. The usual date, to my understanding (and contrary to your unsourced conviction), is c.1200-1600 BCE. So your site was dating the collection conventionally, but this particular portion earlier than the rest? Why?

Not a word. Doesn't really matter though. I can still understand arguments for dating just fine.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

spamandham

I flat out disagree. The repetition of certain numbers is enough to conclude that those numbers have a theological meaning. If we see the same numbers showing up in other religions, it's fair to conclude they have a common origin. I don't think common ground is possible on this one, since we seem to have fundamentally different standards.

Applying your own standard, you would have to demonstrate conclusively what each instance of usage of each of these numbers derived from before you could safely say no. Without doing that, you can only safely say "I don't know". This type of inconsistency and false confidence much sillier than anything I've said. I'm at least consistent with my own standard, even if you don't agree with that standard.

I can see I'm wasting my time. The example was not a comparison between quantum mechanics and social science, it was an example of a fairly uncontroversial case where causality is assumed even though no mechanism for it has been identified.

Toto

Why are you so sure? Do you think that there actually were seven churches?

Rick Sumner

What? Do you know the reference? Revelations 1:11. The seven churches are named. Yes, I think the author had seven churches in mind.

Toto

And seven literal lampstands and seven stars in Jesus' hand? Aren't you being overly literal? Were there precisely seven churches in Asia at this time? Is anything in the Book of Revelation meant to be taken literally?

Rick Sumner

*sigh* Why are there 7 stars Toto? Why are there seven lampstands? Why don't we start by checking Rev.1.20.

The simplest explanation for the seven churches is that it was really written with seven churches in mind.

spamandham

No. This is not the simplest explanation. It's a silly explanation. Revelation is so obviously symbolic it's absurd to even suggest the intent is literal.

youngalexander

Did someone mention seven?

maryhelena

Which came first - the use of the number 12 for symbolic or simply numerical purposes - or the zodiac? Does it really matter?

And as for the Robert Price and Acharya S/D Murdock modern interest in numerology and astrothelogy - perhaps its time that this element within the New Testament is finally brought to the light of day and seen for what it is: A continuation of a centuries old fascination with numbers and astronomy. Christians, if they want to continue with their idea that they stand in some special place in all of this - i.e. that their religion is somehow above it all - are surely being shortsighted.

For what its worth here is Josephus on the number 12 - in connection with the Jerusalem temple.

"Now the seven lamps signified the seven planets; for so many there were springing out of the candlestick. Now the twelve loaves that were upon the table signified the circle of the zodiac and the year;" War 5.5.

The connection between these 12 loaves and the 12 tribes of Israel is usually considered to be relevant. Ex.24:4 and 28:9-10.

Solo

It's not a question of whether Christians stand "above" numerology and astrotheology. It's more about fascination with nonsense and the uncanny faculty of nonsense to displace knowledge and common sense. People tend to forget that the idiocies of Aryan race and the swastika did not start with Chamberlain or Gobineau or Hitler. The three were just imbibing, each according their ability, and each on a different stage of the spread of the disease, the science of theosophy of Mme Blavatsky.

Jiri