Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 08-28-2009, 02:37 AM

http://ecwar.org/Chapter6Clement2.pdf

I dated it ca 150, though this was pretty difficult since it isn't mentioned until Eusebius, and the reference is not 100%certain ( Pascal said maybe 82%

). Surprisingly, I do feel pretty confident about this date. I've learned a lot about the 2d century going through the various works and authors (AClement, Irenaeus, Muratorian (now considered 4th), Tatian, Celsus, Athenagoras, Justin, 2 Clement (if so), Martyrdom, Polycarp, Marcion, Clement, Ignatius, et al.). It fits very well. I am still finalizing the pdfs on all of these other authors, then I can finish the final product on the dating of the snyoptics and move to the HJ from there.

At any rate, explaining verse 2:4 was a beast and I find it to be related to the date of the work so it really wracked my brain for a while on this...

Not sure how accurate the theory on it I advocated is, but I did manage to convince myself :wave:

I suppose someone will offer a disagreement or critique which can give me some perspective...

robto · 08-28-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

It would be curious that
Clement stands alone in referring to synoptic material as scripture ca 150 when 50 years
of Christian history before him and 30 years after him did not.

I'm not sure if this is a very strong argument. Justin seems to use "scripture" for Christian writings in 1 Apol. 28:

Quote:

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings.

Apart from this, my only comment has to do with the structure of the essay. In the first part, you keep on referring to the conclusion that 2 Clem relies on a Gospel harmony, which is argued in the second part of the essay. Why not put the argument for dependence on a harmony before the parts that rely on that conclusion?

Vinnie · 08-28-2009, 08:54 AM

Where do you see "scripture":

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He fore-knows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. And this is the greatest profanity and wickedness.

I think you are right about the structure of the argument.

I should maybe mention 2:4 then postpone judgment till we look at the usage of the material by 2 Clement and then finish.

I just like to start with dating.

08-28-2009, 02:37 AM	#1
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	The Second Epistle of Clement and the Gospels http://ecwar.org/Chapter6Clement2.pdf I dated it ca 150, though this was pretty difficult since it isn't mentioned until Eusebius, and the reference is not 100%certain ( Pascal said maybe 82% ). Surprisingly, I do feel pretty confident about this date. I've learned a lot about the 2d century going through the various works and authors (AClement, Irenaeus, Muratorian (now considered 4th), Tatian, Celsus, Athenagoras, Justin, 2 Clement (if so), Martyrdom, Polycarp, Marcion, Clement, Ignatius, et al.). It fits very well. I am still finalizing the pdfs on all of these other authors, then I can finish the final product on the dating of the snyoptics and move to the HJ from there. At any rate, explaining verse 2:4 was a beast and I find it to be related to the date of the work so it really wracked my brain for a while on this... Not sure how accurate the theory on it I advocated is, but I did manage to convince myself :wave: I suppose someone will offer a disagreement or critique which can give me some perspective...

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08-28-2009, 08:54 AM	#3
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Where do you see "scripture": For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He fore-knows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. And this is the greatest profanity and wickedness. I think you are right about the structure of the argument. I should maybe mention 2:4 then postpone judgment till we look at the usage of the material by 2 Clement and then finish. I just like to start with dating.

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