Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-11-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

I tend to agree that Paul's gospel to the Gentiles was a later invention than the gospels; however it is complex because as Toto pointed out, “We don't know who wrote the letters attributed to Paul, or who edited them or added to them."

But we don't know who wrote Acts of the Apostles, or if it was edited or if there were additions.

It is really not known if all the writings of antiquity were edited or if there were additions.

We can base our conclusions on what is before us until it can be shown that there is other contradictory information available.

And further the writings of Paul cannot be just claimed to be in error when it appears to place him late.

From the writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius it is written that the Jews expected a physical Messiah or Christ. Josephus made commentary on the book of the Hebrew Scripture, including Daniel and made no reference to a heavenly Jesus.

The PHYSICAL Christ or Messiah with respect to the Jews was expected at least since the writings of Daniel.

The author of Daniel is the only writer to name a character called the Messiah.

Again, based on Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius, the Jews thought that the Messiah would have been a Jew and would deliver the Jews from those who were their enemies.

The Jewish Messiah was expected to be physical.

Now, look at Church History 3.20. According to Eusebius, Domitian, Emperor from 81-96 CE, was putting the descendants of David to death until he heard from the grandchildren of Jude, the brother of the supposed Jesus.

Quote:

1. Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord's brother according to the flesh.

2. Information was given that they belonged to the family of David, and they were brought to the Emperor Domitian by the Evocatus. For Domitian feared the coming of Christ as Herod also had feared it. And he asked them if they were descendants of David, and they confessed that they were. Then he asked them how much property they had, or how much money they owned. And both of them answered that they had only nine thousand denarii, half of which belonged to each of them............

6. And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.

7. Upon hearing this, Domitian did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the persecution of the Church.

Based on the writings of the Church ,Domitian learned of the heavenly Christ and kingdom for the first time or was not aware of the heavenly Christ and kingdom until long after Paul was dead.

Up to the reign of Domitian, Christ and his kingdom were considered physical.

Paul is now the only witness to himself.

But, Paul has more problems, his name has been manipulated. Justin Martyr did not write a word about him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philosophy Jay

My belief at the moment is that they were originally written independently of the gospels and Acts. This means that they may have been written before or after the gospels. However, where they match Acts, it seems probable that someone has altered the letters to make them appear to match Acts.

So, why does the writer Paul become true automatically without evidence?

Probability needs evidence. Belief about Paul is not evidence. Paul's name is worthless.

Domitian did not appear to heve heard about Paul's Christ according to the Church story.

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