Vorkosigan

Of course. Apologies are cheaper than lawsuits. But you have never supplied any evidence other than Gibson's shysters' claim that the manuscript was stolen? Have charges been filed? What-- no?

It's a publicity stunt, Layman, by unscrupulous lawyers. Detecting it is a bit like detecting ossuary fraud....oh, wait.....

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

Of course. There are some. And a great many who do not meet Spong's ideals, and a large mass of believers who are compelled one way or another to believe and do so in extremely shallow and silly ways. In Kenya, at least when I was there, religion was compulsory in the schools, Christianity, Islam or Hindu religion. Oddly enough, local religions were frowned on. Go figure.

No, I think he has accurately characterized their faith, as I have experienced it in the vast majority of cases.

Vorkosigan

Layman

Like I said, I know you have no idea what you are talking about here. You've got no idea what you are talking about. I do.

Toto

Layman, so you claim to know everything about this. Did you know that, after loudly rejecting the idea that his film could possibly have a problem with anti-Semitism, that Gibson would suddenly rewrite the script to attempt to do essentially what Fredriksen and the Catholic scholars wanted him to do - soften the anti-Jewish implications?

He could have saved a lot of effort by just meeting with the scholars and getting their input. But that would not have generated the waves of publicity that he's gotten.

Vorkosigan

So it didn't originate with the lawyers.....

RED DAVE

From CJD:

I don't know what your upbringing is, but in my experience, very few xtians are free from antisemitism. And you ain't one of them.

Nice try, but no cigar. You say, in this discussion of xtianity, that ideas can't be separated from their consequences. Then, you express disdain for my criticisms of xtianity while admitting that its history is shameful. There is a contradiction here.

And what do you mean by "people are largely to blame for antisemitism ... not the doctrines of historic, orthodox Xtianity"? If it can be shown, and it has been shown over and over again, that xtianity predisposes people to antisemitism, and that there is an antisemitic core to the xtian mythos (that Jesus transcended Judaism and founded a superior religion, and Jews killed him for it), it seems to me that condemnation of xtianity, per se, is entirely justified.

Well, the problem is, CJD, that xtianity is the dominant religion and the dominant belief system of the West, and a goodly chunk of the horrific events of the past 500 years ago: the slave trade, the destruction of the native poulation of North and South America, Imperialism, WWI, WWII (and the Holocaust), were done by countries intimately involved with xtianity. And there has never, on the part of xtians, despite their pretensions to humility, been repentence for this.


Well, CJD, now you've dropped your drawers and shit in public. I can piss off for that? My great-grandmother was shoved, naked, into a gas chamber, murdered, and, afterwards, her body was cremated and the ashes made into soap: I can piss off for that? No CJD, you have exactly made my point about xtianity. The very fact that you could make a remark like that shows that, as a very professed xtian, you're part of that mix.

I'm restraining my language here.

Your answer to the historical crimes of xtianity is mercy missions? Isn't that sweet. Kill 'em. Burn their homes. Despoil their countries, and then send humble, gentle mercy missions.

You do.

RED DAVE

CJD

RED,

While the amount of murdered relatives in our past is not the issue, I must say I too am intimately familiar with losing others (plural) under some pretty horrific circumstances.

Those responsible in my case were also loosely associated with the Christian church, that is, socially, everyone was "in." The situation was no different during the Holocaust. (The underground confessional German church unfortunately did too little, too late.) Now, I don't blame Christian doctrine for the murders of my relatives, and if I went around blaming those persons whose only connection to the murderers was the worldwide church to which they belonged, then I would also expect to be told to "piss off."

I don't disagree with you here. Sincere repentance is needed. But you must think clearly about this: historic, orthodox Christianity has never been the dominant "belief system" in the West, practically atheistic Christianity has. In other words, we westerners for millennia (until recently) have just merely assumed a quasi-Christian worldview. We have taken for granted some elements of Christianity and built the West upon it. In the end, what you've got is perversion. Hence the resurgence, for example, of Patristic studies. Many of us are seeking to repent, and one way there is to revitalize what has heretofore been neglected. But it doesn't happen overnight, and it seems folks like you wouldn't give it a fair shake anyway. What worries me most, though, is if the younger people think like you. We should take people on a case-by-case basis, as opposed to discriminatory stereotyping. Your connection to the horrors of the past give you no right whatsoever to cast such loaded accusations.

This brings back full circle to putting the blame where it belongs--the human tendency to rationalize any means for the sake of expediency.

Layman

That's a lie. I claim to know more about the legal wrangling regarding this film than you or Vork. Which is not hard, since neither of you seem to know much of anything about it.

Another lie, I simply have argued that the film is not anti-semitic.

Since the film is all but finished, and has been shown to many audiences, I'm skeptical that Gibson agreed to rewrite the script.

If you think that the ADL and Gibson's critics now approve of the film because of any changes Gibson has made, you are incredibly naive.

Toto

Calm down. Labeling mild hyperbole as a lie is taking things too far, even for you.

See above.

You must have missed the quotes above from his language consultant, saying that Gibson wanted some new dialogue for the mob scene making it look like not all of the mob wanted him crucified.

Where did I say anything like this?

Layman

I didn't miss them. But they are not properly characterized as rewriting the script. And I don't claim to be familiar with the decision making regarding filming the Passion.