Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 01-25-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

This is a clear indication that Daniel was written after the installation of the "abomination" in the Temple (167 BCE) but before the death of Antiochus (164 BCE).

The Book of Daniel prophesized events that happened roughly in 30 AD (the messiah that was cut off).

No, it doesn't. Daniel gives no dates whatsoever.

Quote:

Even Josephus acknowledge this.

He did? Cite the chapter and passage.

arnoldo · 01-25-2008, 11:09 AM

"And when the book of Daniel was shewed him, wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present . . ." (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 11, chap. 8, sec. 5, William Whiston translation, 1981).

Sheshonq · 01-25-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

"And when the book of Daniel was shewed him, wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present . . ." (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 11, chap. 8, sec. 5, William Whiston translation, 1981).

Which says nothing about a Messiah cut off in 30 AD <--- your claim, remember?

Care to try again?

spin · 01-25-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

This is a clear indication that Daniel was written after the installation of the "abomination" in the Temple (167 BCE) but before the death of Antiochus (164 BCE).

The Book of Daniel prophesized events that happened roughly in 30 AD (the messiah that was cut off).

Daniel is not prophecy. It is a book of dreams and visions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-...ein_Method.htm
Even Josephus acknowledge this.

Wrong again. Bad apologists are responsible for bad arithmetic.

Cyrus died about 530 BCE. His proclamation for the return of the Jews was obviously before then. If you want to claim accuracy for the 70 weeks of years, ie 490 years, we are looking at a date of 60 BCE.

I'm sorry, arnoldo, I've got nothing against you, but we've seen this lame shit so often. So many would-be christian apologists come here to show how little they know about Daniel. And there is a lot of shite on the web by the same sorts of people, who refuse to look at what scholars have done with the evidence.

spin

Toto · 01-25-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

"And when the book of Daniel was shewed him, wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present . . ." (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 11, chap. 8, sec. 5, William Whiston translation, 1981).

This is fantasy, not history. Please check this prior thread on the Josephus question, Some questions about Josephus and Daniel and the source cited there:

Quote:

Alexander's visit to Jerusalem is outright fabrication. The king never approached Jerusalem. The historical narratives of his march breathe not a hint of any side trip to that city. Alexander went straight to Egypt after the seige of Gaza and, on his return, he went directly from Egypt to Tyre and from there to North Syria and Mesopotamia. There was certainly no reason for Greek sources to have suppressed a visit to the holy city. They regularly report Alexander's arrival at key shrines and sacred places, where he honored native gods and performed public acts of sacrifice. Jerusalem would fit nicely into that repreated scenario, and the Alexander historians could hardly have missed or omitted it. The tale is a fiction. . . .

makerowner · 01-25-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

This is a clear indication that Daniel was written after the installation of the "abomination" in the Temple (167 BCE) but before the death of Antiochus (164 BCE).

The Book of Daniel prophesized events that happened roughly in 30 AD (the messiah that was cut off). http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-...ein_Method.htm
Even Josephus acknowledge this.

Your source is either unable to read or purposely distorting the facts to fit the prophecy. Here is the relevant text from Daniel 9:

Quote:

[24]"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
[26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
[27] And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

(emphasis added)

Note the bolded portion. The week start when Cyrus's command goes out, not in 165 BC (which, I might add, your source seems to have chosen deliberately to fit the prophecy, since different sections of the book are dated between 167-164). So when did the command go out? Here's Wikipedia on the subject:

Quote:

Construction of a new temple was begun in 535; after a hiatus, work resumed ca. 521, with completion occurring in 516 and dedication in 515.

So it was some time before 535, but I'll be generous and go with the last date, 515. So 7 weeks=49 years later, we have an anointed one: 515-49=466 BC. So this 'anointed one' is obviously not Jesus. Then for 62 weeks=434 years, Jerusalem goes along until "an anointed one is cut off": 466-434=32. So this 'anointed one' is obviously not Jesus. Even starting with a date at least twenty years later than the command went out, the 'anointed one' is killed 60 years too early for it to be Jesus.

arnoldo · 01-25-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Daniel (with the exception of the first few chapters which may date to the 3rd century) was written during the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus and the Seleucid Empire between 164 BCE. .

I'm sure your aware of the dead sea scrolls which contain copies of the book of daniel and are not the originals. Neverthelss are we in agreement that this copy of the book of daniel that is in the dead sea scrolls was copied between 3BCE and 167-164 BCE?
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/physi.../dead-sea.html
Are we in agreement that the book of daniel portrays accurate events frm the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus?

makerowner · 01-25-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Daniel (with the exception of the first few chapters which may date to the 3rd century) was written during the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus and the Seleucid Empire between 164 BCE. .

I'm sure your aware of the dead sea scrolls which contain copies of the book of daniel and are not the originals. Neverthelss are we in agreement that this copy of the book of daniel that is in the dead sea scrolls was copied between 3BCE and 167-164 BCE?
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/physi.../dead-sea.html

What are you getting at here? That's what we've all been saying: Daniel was written in 167-164 BC, possibly incorporating older material in the Aramaic chapters. This dating isn't based on the DSS, which only provide us with a latest possible date.

Quote:

Are we in agreement that the book of daniel portrays accurate events frm the Maccabean revolt against Antiochus?

It's not really concerned with the Maccabeans ("a little help"), but rather with Antiochus himself.

arnoldo · 01-25-2008, 04:20 PM

It's just that if the book of Daniel accurately portrays Antiochus the copy of the book of Daniel found in in the dead sea scrolls was probably written around 100 AD, right?

makerowner · 01-25-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It's just that if the book of Daniel accurately portrays Antiochus the copy of the book of Daniel found in in the dead sea scrolls was probably written around 100 AD, right?

No. The copy could have been made any time after 164 BC. Carbon dating and paleography can pin down the date, but I'd have to do some digging to find out when each text is dated to. Why would it have to be written in 100 AD? I have no idea what you're talking about.

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01-25-2008, 11:09 AM	#122
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	"And when the book of Daniel was shewed him, wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present . . ." (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 11, chap. 8, sec. 5, William Whiston translation, 1981).

01-25-2008, 04:20 PM	#129
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	It's just that if the book of Daniel accurately portrays Antiochus the copy of the book of Daniel found in in the dead sea scrolls was probably written around 100 AD, right?

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