Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hyndis · 07-22-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

you seem to be famous for using the 'could've' argument. Sorry I deal with reality. If you want to deal in proportion then the inquisition killing X amount of its own people vs stalin killing 20 million, looks like stalin still wins.

The preliminary result of the census, reported to the Stalin in mid of March 1937, was 162,039,470 people, much lower than the "criminally decreased" registered numbers of 170-172 million or Stalin's expectations of 180 million people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937)

Offical expectations were around 170-172 million. About 10 million people were "missing," presumed dead. Rounding up, Stalin offed about 6% of the population.

Yes, I'm using wikipedia because I have a feeling this post will be ignored anyways, so why put much effort into it? Also, I cannot read Russian, but the census document produced by the USSR is available to read if anyone can read Russian.

Estimates of civilian casualties of up to thirty percent of the population of Germany are now treated with caution. The mortality rate was perhaps closer to 15 to 20 percent, with deaths due to armed conflict, famine and disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_...es_and_disease

Using the low-ball number, 15% is way bigger than 6%. Hell, I'll even be extra, extra generous and for no good rational reason whatsoever cut the low-ball number in half. 7.5% > 6%. Stalin still loses! Proportionally, more people were killed by Christians during the 30 Years War than by Stalin during the early years of his reign. Because Stalin had an ego the size of the universe, he refused to do any more censuses because the census didn't show what he wanted it to show. Propaganda and all that.

Hyndis · 07-22-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabine Grant

Part two : Goodie.... references to the Third Reich. The document which gives us an insight into the mental world of Hitler is Mein Kampf. At the time it was concocted, its author did not spare the projected reader from clear and undeniable references to "His Lord Jesus Christ" and how the battle against the Jew was serving the Lord in question. In fact, he echoes the very anti semitic stances of Luther. Wishing upon the "Jew" to be void of humanity, void of property, void of any rights. Similar terms in German are used as they were in Luther's vociferations. His wishes influenced by Luther's writings became a reality shortly after the fire of the Reichstag. German Jews were indeed declared persona non grata and stripped off of their citizenship rights.(due to an obvious manipulation of the Weimar Constitution through an amendment promoted by the Nazi Party).

Of course, the majority of Christians still to this day will deny that Hitler was a Christian. Who would want to endorse such a monster as "one of their own"? Oh especially Christians, as no Christian would ever consider for a moment agreeing with the notion of genocides to terminate an entire people. Men, women, children and even unborn fetuses.

Oh...my memory fails at times, but I seem to recall that the very deity they worship somehow gets a free pass to ordering genocides, through a multitude of apologists all claiming : but they were evil, evil, evil people. And our "not a Christian" Hitler equally declared Jews "evil, evil, evil people" to justify the "final solution" What an interesting similarity.

But you were saying that he was not a Christian? I happen to disagree with you. Playing the card of endorsing only the "Christians" who would not "hurt a fly" while worshiping a monstrous deity far worse than Hitler was, cannot give you a winning hand.

Maybe this undeniable reality escapes you but Hitler was in fact emulating the deity Christians worship.

'Nuff said.

Sabine Grant · 07-22-2008, 09:21 PM

Very good Hyndis. "God with us". It would be interesting to estimate how many bodies have so far fallen under God's orders. If we of course add the expected number of "evil, evil, evil people" who are supposed to burn in Gods' crematories, I am sure we will have quite an impressive number of victims of a spiritual genocide.

thentian · 07-23-2008, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabine Grant

Very good Hyndis. "God with us". It would be interesting to estimate how many bodies have so far fallen under God's orders. If we of course add the expected number of "evil, evil, evil people" who are supposed to burn in Gods' crematories, I am sure we will have quite an impressive number of victims of a spiritual genocide.

You could start with the conquistadors in south america. There ought to be reliable estimates around on the number of deaths incurred by them. Then there is Beligian Congo. I don't remember exactly, but I think I have seen a claim that the death toll under the christian Leopold II was 10 million. The 1981/1983 genocide in Guatemala may be worth looking into. The circassian genocide (tsarist russia) in the ninteenth century is said to have claimed 400000. If we look at genocides performed by other religions we must not forget the turkish genocides against the armenians and other minority groups. The East Pakistan genocide (1971) has estimated numbers ranging from 200000 to 3 million. Not to forget the current happenings in Sudan, of course! That's just those I can think of off the top of my hat.

Cheers!

Doug Shaver · 07-23-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

You could start with the conquistadors in south america. There ought to be reliable estimates around on the number of deaths incurred by them.

There are, and I have them somewhere, but they're not handy. If anyone challenges what I'm about to say, I'll try to dig them up.

The number of intentional killings by the conquistadores was enough to make any decent person cringe, but they are in no sense comparable with what happened in e.g. Rwanda. The overwhelming majority of aboriginal casualties was due to diseases imported by the Europeans. There might have been a few Spanish who were glad to be spared the effort of slaughtering all those heathens themselves. For most of the Spanish colonists, though, this was actually a problem, because their economic success depending on having a large pool of cheap labor. Corpses don't make good slaves.

Demon · 07-23-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabine Grant

The document which gives us an insight into the mental world of Hitler is Mein Kampf. At the time it was concocted, its author did not spare the projected reader from clear and undeniable references to "His Lord Jesus Christ" and how the battle against the Jew was serving the Lord in question. In fact, he echoes the very anti semitic stances of Luther. Wishing upon the "Jew" to be void of humanity, void of property, void of any rights. Similar terms in German are used as they were in Luther's vociferations. His wishes influenced by Luther's writings became a reality shortly after the fire of the Reichstag. German Jews were indeed declared persona non grata and stripped off of their citizenship rights.(due to an obvious manipulation of the Weimar Constitution through an amendment promoted by the Nazi Party).

Maybe this undeniable reality escapes you but Hitler was in fact emulating the deity Christians worship.

This is a bit off topic, but I also remember reading somewhere that Hitler and many of his followers begant to adopt pre-Christian Germanic religious traditions as well.

diana · 07-23-2008, 08:13 AM

[delete post]

Minimalist · 07-23-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Athiesm + absolute power would be the justification

So....the Holy Inquisition was run by atheists? You are somewhat "selective" in your choice of examples.

cycomiko · 07-23-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr lazer blast

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycomiko

DLB, what numbers are you using when speaking of "christian dictators"? i just wanted to know how you're determining which group of dictators killed more people. just pointing out that stalin killed X number of people (he didn't actually do it himself i would imagine. i bet he had people do it for him.) without a number associated with christian rulers doesn't really show anything. you with me?

There are no death tolls listed for the earlier christian dictators. However the worst atrocities commited by christiany would be the crusades, inquisition, 30 years war, st. bartholomew’s massacre, all of which were commited under christian regimes do not hold a candle to the death toll of atheist regiems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cycomiko

anyway, my view is that stalin didn't destroy churches and all that because he was an atheist. he did that because for the communist state to succeed there needed to be no competition. so with religion out of the way, the state became the most important thing to the russians. it had nothing to do with his atheism, which is simply a lack of believe in a god/gods. not a positive belief in something but a lack of belief. the inquisitions however, can be blamed on a doctrine of a church. not saying that makes christianity as a whole bad. just pointing out that there was no "atheist doctrine" telling stalin to kill people.

it would be the combination of atheism and absolute power that did it, further more the lack of atheist doctrine doesn't account for anything considering marxism is inseperable from atheism according to the famous marxist vladimir lenin.

"Atheism is a material and inseparable part of Marxism"

-vladimir lenin.

what i'm saying is, you've got a number of 20M i think for the deaths attributed to stalin yet no numbers for the christian dictators so there's no way to tell who wins. stalin may have killed alot (how many of the murders were actually commited by christians following stalins orders?) but we've got no numbers to compare it to.

and i know about lenins quote that you keep bringing up. however, would you actually consider stalin's communism to be truly marxist? i know this is a different debate but i'm not sure the soviet communism can actually be called true marxist even though it has it's roots in marxism.

dr lazer blast · 07-23-2008, 02:18 PM

Like I said, history and scholors are divided on whether hitler was atheist or christian. There is evidence that supports both sides.

In the hossbach memorandum it has hitler saying something like "only the disintegrating effect of christianity and the symptoms of age were responsible for the demise of the romans empire" Furthermore, in like 1940 hitler wrote an anti-christian tracts and other things. His atheist cabnit, his lack of religiousness during his wedding, most people came to the conclusion that hitler just used religion as propaganda and a way to manipulate people rather than just get rid of it outright like other leaders, regardless there is evidence that goes both ways, which is why scholors and historians are divided on the subject, which is precisley why most people that argue atheist dictators vs religious dictators leave hitler out because nobody knows.

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07-22-2008, 09:21 PM	#83
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Very good Hyndis. "God with us". It would be interesting to estimate how many bodies have so far fallen under God's orders. If we of course add the expected number of "evil, evil, evil people" who are supposed to burn in Gods' crematories, I am sure we will have quite an impressive number of victims of a spiritual genocide.

07-23-2008, 08:13 AM	#87
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	[delete post]

07-23-2008, 02:18 PM	#90
dr lazer blast Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: charleston sc Posts: 1,622	Like I said, history and scholors are divided on whether hitler was atheist or christian. There is evidence that supports both sides. In the hossbach memorandum it has hitler saying something like "only the disintegrating effect of christianity and the symptoms of age were responsible for the demise of the romans empire" Furthermore, in like 1940 hitler wrote an anti-christian tracts and other things. His atheist cabnit, his lack of religiousness during his wedding, most people came to the conclusion that hitler just used religion as propaganda and a way to manipulate people rather than just get rid of it outright like other leaders, regardless there is evidence that goes both ways, which is why scholors and historians are divided on the subject, which is precisley why most people that argue atheist dictators vs religious dictators leave hitler out because nobody knows.

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