Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 09-27-2010, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

for ages has undermined and prevailed against the high ethics and principals of true YHWHisim.

At the risk of derailing the thread.
Just what is true YHWHism? How does one recognise it?

Boxer · 09-28-2010, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Does it make sense to speak of Moses in any context other than that of the Exodus? The Exodus is something that should have left a good deal of evidence to finds if it had occurred the way that it’s depicted in the Bible. So far that evidence has not been found so I doubt the Exodus occurred. Therefore I also doubt the existence of a Moses if he is defined as the one who lead the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt.

Steve

There is the evidence of the book of Exodus itself?

Juststeve · 09-28-2010, 06:25 AM

Boxer:

This thread presumes that the Book Of Exodus is not standing alone sufficient evidence of the existence of Moses. Otherwise the question is a foolish one, Exodus clearly states Moses existed so he did. It then becomes a mere question of dating.

On the other hand if the tale recounted in Exodus is substantially true there ought to be a massive amount of archeological evidence of the presence of a large number of Hebrews in a rather small area over a long period of time. That evidence has been sought in vain. It is therefore appropriate to conclude tentatively and pending further discoveries that the Exodus as described in the Bible didn’t happen. I think this would be the conclusion of anyone who does not privilege Bible stories over other kinds of evidence.

Steve

Doug Shaver · 09-28-2010, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Moses existed, and so did all the rest of the Jewish leaders.

And we should believe that just because you say so?

show_no_mercy · 09-28-2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Does it make sense to speak of Moses in any context other than that of the Exodus? The Exodus is something that should have left a good deal of evidence to finds if it had occurred the way that it’s depicted in the Bible. So far that evidence has not been found so I doubt the Exodus occurred. Therefore I also doubt the existence of a Moses if he is defined as the one who lead the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt.

Steve

This is basically what I was saying. If there was no Exodus, then it's impossible to identify someone who we would recognize as "Moses".

Juststeve · 09-28-2010, 07:06 AM

Mercy:

Yes, we agree, which means we must both be right.

Steve

spin · 09-28-2010, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Moses existed, and so did all the rest of the Jewish leaders.

And we should believe that just because you say so?

Yup. He's been proven right so often! Just search the archives. You'll be impressed. He's demonstrated his rightness through the mystical art of assertion more times than you'd believe. (With such a record, I don't know how anyone can respond to him.)

spin

funinspace · 09-28-2010, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Does it make sense to speak of Moses in any context other than that of the Exodus? The Exodus is something that should have left a good deal of evidence to finds if it had occurred the way that it’s depicted in the Bible. So far that evidence has not been found so I doubt the Exodus occurred. Therefore I also doubt the existence of a Moses if he is defined as the one who lead the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt.

Steve

There is the evidence of the book of Exodus itself?

Sure it is evidence. The question more appropriately is: what is it evidence of? I'll give you a comparative example. I'm sure you have heard of the mythical tale called "Jason and the Golden Fleece", correct? Well archeologists are pretty confident that they have found the ruins of the family estate of a real Jason and his family. So we probably have more physical evidence of Jason's existence than Moses (or Moshe). So does this archeological find (evidence) now make the tale true? Of course not.

The problem with the Exodus tale is that it makes many exotic claims upon history and events. None of these events can be validated outside of the Bible, and many of them seem to contradict the very real evidence from Egyptian archeology. Sure the Tanakh gets a few people and places named out of history, but that is about it. Obviously, one cannot really prove something didn't happen in history. However, just because some idea is sacred to faith system, doesn't make it any more real. There is lots of internal evidence that suggests that the books now in the Tanakh were edited well beyond the time the events purportedly happened. The oldest copies we have of the books of the Tanakh, are from 200 BCE. The Exodus events purported occurred somewhere between 1200-1500 BC. So our copies are from a millennia after the events. All of this suggests that the historicity of the Book of Exodus does not have a very high level of credibility. One is free to believe it based upon faith, but the facts do not make it very plausible.

Yes, there might have been a man providing a kernel that this story sprung off of, just as Jason probably existed. But what constructs beyond a man's mere existence contains any truth in history is a wide open question.

semiopen · 09-28-2010, 10:55 AM

I was doing a little research related to the Why the Jews thread in World History. I just posted on there that the Jews and Chaldeans were banished from Rome in 139 BCE. The question is what could you possibly do to annoy the Romans that much?

The answer is astrology and magic.

In the middle ages, the few Jewish Scientists (who were also always Rabbis) were usually astronomers and astrologers. My Rabbi, who is Chabad (Haredi) told me that astrology was a legitmate science... this from a guy who believes there was a Tower of Babel.

It turns out that Abraham was a Chaldean. As the Jewish Encyclopedia goes:

Quote:

In the Old Testament Abraham presents the type of a simple Bedouin sheik who wanders from place to place in search of pasture for his herds, a kindhearted, righteous, and God-fearing man whom God chose on account of his faithful and righteous character to be the father of a nation peculiarly favored by Him in the possession of the coveted land of Canaan. Once he is spoken of as a "prophet" (Gen. xx. 7). Incidentally we learn that his father, Terah, was an idolater, like the rest of the Chaldeans (Josh. xxiv. 2); but how Abraham became a worshiper of the Lord, or why God singled him out and led him forth to Canaan, is left to surmise. No sooner, however, did the Jewish people come into closer contact with nations of higher culture, especially with the Greeks in Alexandria, than the figure of Abraham became the prototype of a nation sent forth to proclaim the monotheistic faith to the world while wandering from land to land. Accordingly, the divine promise (Gen. xii. 3, xxii. 18) is understood to mean: " . . . in thee [instead of "with thee"] shall all the families of the earth be blessed" (see LXX. ad loc.).

Propagator of the Knowledge of God.

In the third and second centuries B.C., Alexandrine Jews, writing under the name of Hecatæus and Berosus, and Samaritans, like Eupolemus, composed works on Jewish history, from which Josephus ("Ant." i. 7, § 8) gives the following: Abraham, endowed with great sagacity, with a higher knowledge of God and greater virtues than all the rest, was determined to change the erroneous opinions of men. He was the first who had the courage to proclaim God as the sole Creator of the universe, to whose will all the heavenly bodies are subject, for they by their motions show their dependence on Him. His opposition to astrology provoked the wrath of the Chaldeans, and he had to leave their country and go to Canaan. Afterward, when he came to Egypt, he entered into disputes with all the priests and the wise men, and won their admiration and, in many cases, their assent to his higher views. He imparted to them the knowledge of arithmetic and astronomy, which sciences came to Egypt from Chaldea only in the days of Abraham. Abraham's revolt from Chaldean astrology is spoken of in Philo ("On Abraham," xvii.), in connection with Gen. xv. 5 (compare Gen. R. xliv.).

Opposes Idolatry.

Concerning his religious awakening in his father's house, the Book of Jubilees, written probably in the time of John Hyrcanus, relates (xi.) that, in order not to participate in the idolatry practised in connection with astrology by the whole house of Nahor, Abraham, when he was fourteen years of age, left his father, and prayed to God to save him from the errors of men. Abraham became an inventor of better modes of agriculture, showing the people how to save the seeds in the field from the ravens that devoured them. He then tried to persuade his father to renounce idol-worship, but Terah was afraid of the people and told him to keep silent. Finally, when Abraham met with the opposition of his brothers also, he arose one night and set fire to the house in which the idols were kept. In an attempt to save these, his brother Haran was burned to death.

When, in the night of the new moon of Tishri (the New-year), Abraham was watching the stars to forecast the year's fertility, the revelation came to him that, in view of God's omnipotent will, all astrological predictions were valueless, and, after fervent prayer, he received word from God to leave the Chaldeans and set out on his mission to bless the nations by teaching them the higher truths. An angel of God taught him Hebrew, the language of revelation, by which he was enabled to decipher all the secrets of the ancient books (see Gen. R. xlii). Leaving his brother Nahor with his father, Abraham went to the Holy Land and observed there all the festivals and new moons (afterward prescribed to the Israelites, but already written on the heavenly tablets revealed to Enoch), besides many other customs observed by the priesthood of the second century B.C.

Chaldea,

Quote:

Chaldea or Chaldaea (Arabic كلدان‎, Kaldān[1][2]), "the Chaldeans" of the KJV Old Testament, was a marshy land located in Southern Iraq and Kuwait which came to rule Babylon. Tribes of settlers who arrived in the region in 625-539 BC became known as the Chaldeans.

A little bit after the dates suggested in the bible.

Moses, etc plays into this also.

Biblical Insights into Astrology

goes:

Quote:

The Twelve Tribes

Abraham was a wise spiritual seeker, but also a brave warrior. Moses later became another fiery leader of this Age. They both studied the ancient sciences of the Egyptians and understood that the twelve signs of the Mazzaroth were the immortal thoughts of God that penetrate creation. The twelve tribes of Israel (Abraham's grandsons) are associated with the twelve signs of the zodiac. According to Jewish astrologers, the Hebrews accepted Deuteronomy 32:8 as proof of the fact that people are divided into twelve distinct personality types. It says, "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the boundaries of the people according to the number of the tribes of Israel." In astrology twelve archetypal forces divide people.

The characteristics of the twelve tribes were given both by Jacob in Genesis 49 when he blesses his sons and again in Deuteronomy 33 when Moses blesses the tribes. They correspond to the basic meanings of the twelve signs used today. God ordered Moses to have the twelve tribes camp around the holy tabernacle in the exact order of the zodiac with the entrance to the temple facing east. The four gateways to the camp were Judea, Rueben, Ephraim and Dan. These four tribes correspond to the exact description in Ezekiel and Revelations of the four living creatures before the throne of God, which were the lion, the bull, the man and the eagle. These four ancient symbols correspond to our own astrological signs of Leo, Taurus, Aquarius and Scorpio which contain the four royal stars of Persia, Regulus in Leo, Aldebaran in Taurus, Formalhaut in Aquarius, Antares in Scorpio.[2] God even directs Moses to have the tribes march through the desert starting with Judea (Leo) and going backwards towards the camps of Rueben (Taurus), Ephraim (Aquarius) and Dan (Scorpio). This is the exact motion of the equinoctial precession that gives rise to the flow of the astrological ages, a 26,000-year cycle.

Moses, like Joseph, was well versed in Egyptian astrology. As the adopted son of pharaoh's daughter he was well educated in all the mystery school wisdom of Egypt. The Hebrew word for Egypt is mitsuri, the land of mystery. In Acts 7:22 it says, "Moses was trained in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action." He was the perfect warrior prophet for the Arian age.

Aaron's breastplate was set with twelve sacred stones each symbolizing a Hebrew tribe and thus, a zodiac sign. Joshua 4:6 says, "God is remembered by twelve stones in a circle." The Hebrews created elaborate rituals based on a lunar calendar. In astrology New Moons symbolize beginnings and the sacred feast of Israel instituted by God's commands to Moses through visions, were based on the phases of the Moon. The day of the New Moon was a day of feasting and blowing trumpets (Numbers 10:10). Psalms 81:3 says, "Sound the ram's horn at the new moon and when the moon is full, on the day of our feast." The seventh New Moon was the time of the holy convocation feast and the Full Moon of this month was the Feast of Tabernacles to celebrate harvest. The seventh sign in astrology is Libra, symbolizing balance and love and the Full Moon symbolizes illumination, vision and fulfillment, the time when emotional response is highest. Passover was observed from the Full Moon to the waning quarter, a period symbolic of illumination and the dissemination of truth.

The Author goes on:

Quote:

The Age of Pisces

The Age of Aries gradually gave way to the next sign of the zodiac, Pisces, the archetype of universal love and compassion through selfless service. The three Chaldean Magi followed the star across the Arabian Desert in search of the incoming spiritual master of love. Three astrologers utilized the language of the heavens to discover the long-prophesized Hebrew Messiah. Modern research has revealed that Jesus may have been born closer to 7 BCE around the time of the Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus triple conjunction in Pisces. Every astrologer inspired to research the illusive chart of Christ has a pet theory as to the exact birth date. My own research lead me to conclude that he was born on September 16, 7 BCE around midnight in Bethlehem. In any case, the ultimate spiritual mystic arrived to teach the Way as High Priest of the Order of the Melchizedek (as the Bible refers to him in Hebrews 6:20).

Diogenes the Cynic · 09-28-2010, 11:57 AM

That's all very imaginative and entertaining, but none of it has the slightest empirical support. All the available historical and archaeological evidence shows both Abraham (and the rest of the Patriarchs) and Moses to be wholly mythological characters.

Moses was probably dimly inspired by the Pharaoh Ahmose I (and his expulsion of the Hyksos which was a likely source for the Exodus myth) who lived in the 16th Century BCE -- long before any such thing as the Hebrews or an Israelite Yahweh cult existed yet.

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09-28-2010, 06:25 AM	#23
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Boxer: This thread presumes that the Book Of Exodus is not standing alone sufficient evidence of the existence of Moses. Otherwise the question is a foolish one, Exodus clearly states Moses existed so he did. It then becomes a mere question of dating. On the other hand if the tale recounted in Exodus is substantially true there ought to be a massive amount of archeological evidence of the presence of a large number of Hebrews in a rather small area over a long period of time. That evidence has been sought in vain. It is therefore appropriate to conclude tentatively and pending further discoveries that the Exodus as described in the Bible didn’t happen. I think this would be the conclusion of anyone who does not privilege Bible stories over other kinds of evidence. Steve

09-28-2010, 07:06 AM	#26
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Mercy: Yes, we agree, which means we must both be right. Steve

09-28-2010, 11:57 AM	#30
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	That's all very imaginative and entertaining, but none of it has the slightest empirical support. All the available historical and archaeological evidence shows both Abraham (and the rest of the Patriarchs) and Moses to be wholly mythological characters. Moses was probably dimly inspired by the Pharaoh Ahmose I (and his expulsion of the Hyksos which was a likely source for the Exodus myth) who lived in the 16th Century BCE -- long before any such thing as the Hebrews or an Israelite Yahweh cult existed yet.

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