aa5874

Why did you reply to my question with a question??

Why did you reply to my question with a question??

Sheshbazzar

Who then, in your opinion, was? And what made them so?

Sheshbazzar

I'll try again;
Then WHO was? And what made them so?

aa5874

Why can't you just admit that you didn't know what you were talking about when you implied that Justin " pops in from outside of the existing Christian community, buys himself a philosophers coat, and wallah! He is transformed into Church's foremost spokesperson".?

Justin Martyr did NOT even claim he was a Bishop or President of any Church between c 100-150 CE.

It is claimed Ignatius was a Bishop of the Church c 98-117 CE. He would have been the foremost spokesperson for his Church at that time.

Marcion was the Leader of a Christian cult c 100-150 CE--Marcion would have been the foremost spokesperson for his Church.

Justin Martyr was a LAUGHING STOCK in the time of Marcion and wrote his Apology on behalf of Those of All Nations who were unjustly hated and abused.

aa5874

You have NOT been able to produce any actual evidence at all that writings attributed to Justin are forgeries.

There are NT manuscripts dated to the 2nd-3rd century so even if there were mass forgery it would not have been initiated in the 4th century.

Your statement is rather strange. You have no C 14 dated manuscripts of the Paul/Seneca letters yet you are claiming that they appeared in the 4th century.

How did you arrive at such a time period?? Where is the actual evidence??

Surely, you have heard about the Donation of Constantine. Writings that were claimed to be from the 4th century about Constantine were composed hundreds of years later.

The same thing may be about the History of the Church. Eusebius may have written NOTHING at all in the 4th century.

Justin could not be one of the Church's foremost apologists when he did NOT mention the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline writings, the Non Pauline letters, did NOT write about any Bishops of the Church and did NOT claim he was a leader, bishop or president of the Jesus cult.

Joseph Wheless failed to point out and provide actual evidence of any forgeries in the writings attributed to Justin.

He seems to think that erroneous information is forgery.

Again, you have no actual evidence to show there are forgeries. You seem not to understand that even if writings attributed to Justin were forged then Justin Martyr cannot be held responsible for them.

It is claimed that the writings of Josephus and Tacitus were interpolated and no-one blames them for the forgeries.

The writings of Justin Martyr contradict the History of the Church and was NOT used by the Church.

We know EXACTLY whose writings are Massive Forgeries--they ALWAYS mention Paul.

Again, we have actual recovered NT manuscripts dated to the 2nd century. We have Non-Apologetic writings that mention Christians in Palestine and the Jesus story in the 2nd century.

There is evidence of the Jesus story and cult in the 2nd century.

If you refuse to accept the evidence then your argument will continue to be futile.

Duvduv

AA, cut it out....."recovered NT manuscripts dated to the 2nd century" my foot.........what Christians in Palestine? Where? Which towns? Which locations? Which people? Where? On and on this goes ad nauseum.

The fact is that there is no evidence of any Christian communities anywhere in the second century. And your old pal Justin never ONCE even mentions the locations, cities, leaders, predecessors, colleagues, history of his alleged sect. This is because it did NOT EXIST before the fourth century, which is when it began to emerge, and the fabricator of "Justin" was honest enough not to try to invent all of this in his doctrinal/didactic work.

Sheshbazzar

A lot of dancing around aa, but anyone that can read can see that you have not answered the simple question;

Who was the Christian church's most prolific KNOWN WRITER of Christian doctrine and apologetics BEFORE c. 150 CE. aa?

Can't very well be anyone from whom we do not have a single KNOWN WRITING.

Now that wasn't the question that I asked is it aa?

And do you really wish to claim that the WRITINGS of 'Ignatius' are authentically pre-117 CE?
_You get to have ST. Ignatus's testimonony to a 1st century CE. Apostle Paul along with that package.

Do you have your own religion where this most prolific early Christian writer's name must be kept a closely guarded and mysterious secret?

Sheshbazzar

Now aa, there you go with inventing and imagining stuff.

WHERE is there any early text that ever says; "Justin Martyr was a LAUGHING STOCK" ?

We need DATED DOCUMENTATION of this imaginative claim.

You know. We don't accept peoples imaginations here any more.

Duvduv

Not to mention the fact that absolutely nothing alleged to have been written by Marcion has ever survived, and has not even been described in passing by the esteemed Justin who supposedly lived at the same time and in the same town as Marcion.

One day historical scholarship is going to have to come to grips with their tendency to build sandcastles based on their reliance on the claims of the commissioned heresiologists and apologists.

After all, isn't it simply ridiculous that some guy named Irenaeus (about whom almost nothing is even known) writes a book called "Against Heresies" allegedly in an age (2nd century) when there was no official church to condemn heresies for a population of believers amounting to a relative handful of people that no one knew about?!

If Justin and Irenaeus were writers in the 2nd century then my name is Quick Draw McGraw.

aa5874

Now aa, there you go with inventing and imagining stuff.

You have no idea of what you are talking about when you implied that Justin " just pops in from outside of the existing Christian community, buys himself a philosophers coat, and wallah! He is transformed into Church's foremost spokesperson".

You have NO idea that Christians like Marcion and the Marcionites used to LAUGH at Justin and those who believed Jesus was born.

First Apology LVIII Justin was a LAUGHING STOCK c 100-150 CE.

Marion ALONE knew the Truth according to the Marcionites so tell me who was the foremost spokesperson for the CHURCH c 100-150 CE???

Basilides, Valentinus, Marcos, Saturnilus, Ignatius, Aristides????