badger3k

How does a "reprisal" action done by SS soldiers in the recent (and recorded) past relate to someone writing close to 2000 years ago? Is there some connection I have missed? If you are arguing that it "could" have happened, that is probably accurate. The problem is going from "could" to "did" - and to do that we need evidence. We can go to the two towns where the SS worked and talk to people, we can look for records - where are records supporting anything from the first few centuries CE?

You would also have to point out the mentality and policies of the Nazi's and Romans, and look for similarities. That would definitely help to see if such a pattern was indicated, as that would be evidence to support any martyrdom accounts. Have you found anything along those lines? I'm not saying that such couldn't have occurred - atrocities and genocide are part of human history, but I'd like to see evidence that these were common enough to support an unsupported assertion. By this, I mean if there is no other evidence to support a claim, we can use common behavior to say that a particular occurrence was more likely to have been a real event. Is that at all clear? If not, let me know - I think I got confused writing that.

Also, what are your sources that you are writing from? Just curious.

Finally, how do you claim (if that is what you are doing) that the numbers of Saints canonized by previous posts (and the last one pushed through some 555 IIRC) - one source gives about 4500 saints in the Roman Martyrology, which may contain a lot more than martyrs (the implication is that this is the current list). JP2 has been selected for the fast-track to sainthood and he certainly was no martyr. Even though you make a distinction, the number still has no bearing on reality - we would need evidence that all of those existed, or probably existed, and that they actually suffered martyrdom. And that the number has some relation to an actual amount of martyrs - is the ratio 1 saint to 100 normal martyrs, or what - and how did that number arise? Am I misreading what you mean?

I haven't paid too much attention to this issue except to see that the evidence for mass martyrdom as some Christians claim does not support them, so any evidence you have to contribute would be welcome.

Johnny Skeptic

What difference does it make how many Christians were persecuted? A person believing a lie can be persecuted just as easily as a person who believes the truth. There is no evidence that I am aware of that states that historically, most Christian who were persecuted and/or killed were given a chance to recant their beliefs. Regarding those that weren't, they were not martyrs. A martyr is someone who willingly dies for his beliefs, not someone who unwillingly dies for his beliefs.

Christians themselves persecuted plenty of people. In fact, the largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder and theft of property.

Huon

I did not say anything else. I know the difference between "could happen" and "actually did happen". Here, my point is that Gibbon (for instance) thought that such an assertion (killing all the people of a town) was extremely exaggerated. I think that it is far from frequent, but not impossible.

Perhaps, you need some precisions about me. I am NOT a Christian and the persecutions, alleged or real, of Christians 1800 years ago will not change my lack of religion.

Huon

Eusebius, who was a Christian propagandist in his time. So, we must take his words with great precautions. But we have not many contradictors. Their writings have been completely destroyed, and by whom ? (*irony*).

Sometimes, however, Eusebius shows some contradictions. In several places, he shows that the Christians of his epoch were not a homogeneous religious population.

Huon

I have not given any ratio, such as 1 saint to 100 "normal" martyrs, as you say. (I don't know the difference between a "normal" martyr and another "abnormal" martyr... ). I have simply mentioned that there were not so many "registered saints" of this period. If there was a ratio, it would be 1 to 1. It is not my business to multiply the so-called martyrs.

Enda80

Weren't many of the Pauline Christians thrown to the lions convicted of murdering Nazarenes (Ebionites) and Gnostics, or Pauline Christians that they disagreed with?

Johnny Skeptic

There is no evidence how many Christians Paul persecuted. There might have only been a few Christians at that time.

Enda80

Mr. Skeptic, I did not mean those people that Paul himself persecuted, I mean those people who came after Paul who reverenced his writings and followed his theology who clashed in street riots with Gnostics, Adoptionists, Ebionites, Marcionites, etc. I was wondering how many Pauline Christians killed one of the latter groups and were thrown to the lions by the Romans for it.


(Actually, if one accepts that Paul started Christianity, then he actually persecuted no Christians, since the only people around before who reverenced Jesus were the Ebionite adoptionists and Nazarene Adoptionists who followed James.)

badger3k

I was just wondering what point you were trying to make. I was hoping for something with more evidence relating to the period. Appreciate the response, though.

Edited for clarity and bad phrasing - I think it could have been taken as insulting (or dismissive) the way I originally wrote it, and didn't mean it that way, so I changed it.

badger3k

OK, thanks - any particular translation (book, web, etc)?