Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClassicsFiend

So... how would the "Constantine Invented Christianity" thesis account for pagan references to Christians such as the one found in Tacitus (1st century Roman historian)? Or, say, letters between Pliny and Trajan (late 1st century/early 2nd) that specifically deal with the question of how to punish Christians?

I have outlined an explantion for these and other
citations explicity at Sub-Module 4(d): Prenicene Author
identifies as non christian, in the article
the fabrication of the Galilaeans

The following index at this article is hyperlinked:

Cent-Year----Citation description

1st - CENTURY
--------------------------------------------
1st - 032 - Letter of King Agbar & Jesus' Rescript - FRAUD
1st - 030 - Letter from Herod Antipas - FRAUD
1st - 030 - letter of Publius Lentulus - FRAUD
1st - 032 - Letters of Caiaphas - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Letters of Pilate - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Confession of Pilate - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Correspondence between Paul and Seneca - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Correspondence between Seneca and Paul - FRAUD
1st - 064 - Nero fire refs (Tacit.Annals XV) - INTERPOLATION
1st - 075 - Domitian (emp:069-079) "Persecution" - FRAUD
1st - 091 - Josephus Flavius (TF; AJ) - INTERPOLATION
1st - XXX - SUMMARY: All above citations recognised as FRAUD.

2nd - CENTURY
--------------------------------------------
2nd - XXX - Papyrii fragments via paleography - CARBON DATING
2nd - 109 - Tacitus (references in Annals XV) - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 112 - Plinius, Ep 10:97 - Pliny to Trajan - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 113 - Trajan to Pliny (rescript) - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 115 - Trajan's order Martyrdom Ignatius - FRAUD
2nd - 121 - Suetonius, Lives, Nero, 16. - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 135 - Hadrian Rescript to the pro-consul of Asia - FRAUD
2nd - 150 - Antonius Pius (emp:138-161) commune of Asia - FRAUD
2nd - 166 - Martydom of Justin Martyr at Rome - FRAUD
2nd - 167 - M.Antoninus "christian" ref (Med, 11:3) - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 167 - Martydom of Polycarp at Smyrna - FRAUD
2nd - 169 - Lucian (Life of Peregrine) - INTERPOLATION
2nd - 174 - M.Antoninus (Rescript?) - FRAUD
2nd - 174 - M.Antoninus (Report to Senate "Thundering Legion") - FRAUD
2nd - 175 - Celsus ("The True Word") - FRAUD (See Eusebius)
2nd - 177 - Apology of Melito (to M.Antoninus ?)- FRAUD
2nd - 177 - Apology of Tatian (to M.Antoninus ?)- FRAUD
2nd - 177 - Letter "Gallic christians" - Blandina & Pothinus - FRAUD
2nd - 177 - Apology of Athenagoras (to M.Antoninus ?) - FRAUD
2nd - 178 - Apology of Apollinaris (to M.Antoninus ?) - FRAUD
2nd - 178 - Apology of Theophilus (to M.Antoninus ?) - FRAUD
2nd - 178 - Apology of Miltiades (to M.Antoninus ?) - FRAUD
2nd - 180 - Lucian (Alexander the Prophet) - INTERPOLATION

3rd - CENTURY
--------------------------------------------
3rd - 202 - The "edict of Septimius Severus"- FRAUD
3rd - 216 - Inscription of Abercius - NOT NECESSARILY CHRISTIAN
3rd - 248 - Philip Arabus, turns christian millenial games - FRAUD
3rd - 250 - Emperor Decius - perhaps 50 executions (250/251)
3rd - 255 - Galienus' decree (via H.E.); 253-258 - FRAUD
3rd - 258 - Dura-Europa "house church" - NOT NECESSARILY CHRISTIAN
3rd - 276 - Mani, the Sassanian "sage" ("christian") - FRAUD
3rd - XXX - Christian Inscriptions of Phyrgia - "LATER HAND"!
3rd - XXX - Vatican Catacombs (eg: Callixtus) - Renovations of Pope Damasus (366-384 CE)

4th - CENTURY
--------------------------------------------
4rd - 301 - Porphyry's violent anti-christian polemic - FRAUD
4th - 303 - Diocletian - perhaps 50 executions (FRAUD; Egyptian persecution)

addenda ...

4th - 305 - The rise of Constantine
4th - 312 - The taking of Rome by Constantine
4th - 312 to 324 - Eusebius' Christian "Ecclesiastical History"
4th - 324 - The military supremacy of Constantine
4th - 324 -----------------------------------------
4th - 324 - THE CHAOTIC NICAEAN BOUNDARY EVENT
4th - 325 ------------------------------------------
4th - 325 - Constantine's Supremacy Party (Council of Nicaea)
4th - 331 - Constantine is the first to publish "The Bible".
4th - 361 - Julian: "convinced the fabrication is a fiction of wicked men".

5th - 420 - CONTRA JULIAN: Did Bishop Cyril censor Julian's NAMING of the wicked men?

Quote:

Also, if Constantine invented Christianity, how would you explain the works of early Christian philosophers like Origen (early 3rd century)? I'd be especially interested to hear that one since Origen was pretty edgy and was later regarded as a heretic. Not the kind of thing you'd forge to create a unified political body. Plus Origen is really complex. Lots of genuine deep thought in there.

Our thesis is that Origen was an author of antiquity
who wrote exclusively about the Hebrew texts, and
that the Origen writing "new testament stuff" is in
fact Eusebius, who also wrote as Cesus and Porphyry,
so that the writings of Porphyry, leading "pagan
academic of the empire" could be justifiably destroyed.

youngalexander · 06-25-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I was not able to locate that book you have.
[Ante Pacem: Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine]

Alternatively, list a few of his citations.
That's all I am after.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Pete

Geez Pete! I do not know how you are fixed for cash, but at < A$40 from Amazon it is surely not beyond reach. Given your level of interest in the subject I would have thort that it would be a 'must have'.

I purchased it partly because of your posts, but mostly because I have visited several 'early Christian' sites in Rome, Ostia & Hungary but only as a tourist and was curious as to their provenance. In addition it is a very useful reference for many of the discussion here and elsewhere.

The Amazon page does not provide an inside search so I'll give you a run down of some of the contents.

Ch 1: History and Methodology of Early Archaeology
I. A History of the Discipline
II. Methodology of Interpretation
III. Contextual Methodology

Ch 2: Early Christian Symbols
I. Symbols of Conflict
A. The Anchor eg. Priscilla Epigraphs #44, 45, 84, 106; B. The Boat, eg. Paul and Thecla fragment, etc

II. So Deliverance
III. So Community
IV. Satisfaction
V. the Deliverer
VI. Supremacy
VII. Defeat
VIII. The Invisible Symbol

Ch 3: Pictorial Representations
I. Frescoes
II. Mosaics
III. Sarcophagi
IV. Sculptures

Ch 4: Pictorial Interpretations
I. The Jonah Cycle
II. Noah in the Arc
III. Daniel in the Lion's Den
IV. Susanna and the Elders
V. The Sacrifice of Isaac

IX. Jesus
X. Baptism of Jesus

XII. Jesus the Healer

XV. Jesus Teaching

XVIII. The Multiplication of the Loaves and Fishes

Ch 5: Early Church Buildings
I. The Church at Dura-Europas
II. The Domus Petri in Capharnaum
III. The Double Church at Aquileia
IV. The Tituli Churches of Rome
V. Cemetery Structures
VI. Baptistries

Ch 6: Inscriptions and Graffiti
I. Dated Inscriptions from Rome
II. Insc. from pre-Constantine Sarcophagi
III. Insc. from Vatican Mus.
IV. Insc. from Catacomb of Priscilla
V. Insc. Upper Tembris Valley
VI. Graffiti in the Triclia and Spring under S. Sebastiano
VII. The Aedicula of St. Peter
VIII. G Domus Ecclesiae in Dura-Europos
IX. G on the Choir of the Liebfrauenkircke in Trier

Ch 7: Papyrus Documentation

Ch 8: Summary

Snyder says that he began the work in 1965. There are several maps and many illustrations, building plans, photos - you'd love it.:devil1:

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

See the Exceptions Index and interpretations thereof.

How is any of that evidence that falsifies the hypothesis that Christianity existed before Constantine? It isn't. How, for example, is the existence of the archaeological finds from Dura-Europos logically incompatible with the existence of Christianity with Constantine? It isn't. You haven't even attempted to show that it is. All you have attempted to show is that the archaeological finds from Dura-Europos are compatible with the hypothesis that Christianity did not exist before Constantine. This is not the same as showing that they are incompatible with the hypothesis that Christianity did exist before Constantine.

If that's the best you can do at falsifying, it's not good enough.

Well take the floor JD. If you can do better
in the falsification of it, be my guest.

ClassicsFiend · 06-25-2007, 08:13 PM

Hate to say this but... writing "fraud" next to something doesn't make it a fraud.

Goathead · 06-25-2007, 08:15 PM

um, he just said it was your job.

Im interested and woudl like to hear it though.

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngalexander

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I was not able to locate that book you have.
[Ante Pacem: Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine]

Alternatively, list a few of his citations.
That's all I am after.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Pete

Geez Pete! I do not know how you are fixed for cash, but at < A$40 from Amazon it is surely not beyond reach. Given your level of interest in the subject I would have thort that it would be a 'must have'.

I purchased it partly because of your posts, but mostly because I have visited several 'early Christian' sites in Rome, Ostia & Hungary but only as a tourist and was curious as to their provenance. In addition it is a very useful reference for many of the discussion here and elsewhere.

The Amazon page does not provide an inside search so I'll give you a run down of some of the contents.

Ch 1: History and Methodology of Early Archaeology
I. A History of the Discipline
II. Methodology of Interpretation
III. Contextual Methodology

Ch 2: Early Christian Symbols
I. Symbols of Conflict
A. The Anchor eg. Priscilla Epigraphs #44, 45, 84, 106; B. The Boat, eg. Paul and Thecla fragment, etc

II. So Deliverance
III. So Community
IV. Satisfaction
V. the Deliverer
VI. Supremacy
VII. Defeat
VIII. The Invisible Symbol

Ch 3: Pictorial Representations
I. Frescoes
II. Mosaics
III. Sarcophagi
IV. Sculptures

Ch 4: Pictorial Interpretations
I. The Jonah Cycle
II. Noah in the Arc
III. Daniel in the Lion's Den
IV. Susanna and the Elders
V. The Sacrifice of Isaac

IX. Jesus
X. Baptism of Jesus

XII. Jesus the Healer

XV. Jesus Teaching

XVIII. The Multiplication of the Loaves and Fishes

Ch 5: Early Church Buildings
I. The Church at Dura-Europas
II. The Domus Petri in Capharnaum
III. The Double Church at Aquileia
IV. The Tituli Churches of Rome
V. Cemetery Structures
VI. Baptistries

Ch 6: Inscriptions and Graffiti
I. Dated Inscriptions from Rome
II. Insc. from pre-Constantine Sarcophagi
III. Insc. from Vatican Mus.
IV. Insc. from Catacomb of Priscilla
V. Insc. Upper Tembris Valley
VI. Graffiti in the Triclia and Spring under S. Sebastiano
VII. The Aedicula of St. Peter
VIII. G Domus Ecclesiae in Dura-Europos
IX. G on the Choir of the Liebfrauenkircke in Trier

Ch 7: Papyrus Documentation

Ch 8: Summary

Snyder says that he began the work in 1965. There are several maps and many illustrations, building plans, photos - you'd love it.:devil1:

Thanks for the index.

I loved the reaqding and study of the book
"The Christians for Christians Inscriptions of Phrygia".

Did you read my review of it?

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClassicsFiend

Hate to say this but... writing "fraud" next to something doesn't make it a fraud.

1st - CENTURY
--------------------------------------------
1st - 032 - Letter of King Agbar & Jesus' Rescript - FRAUD
1st - 030 - Letter from Herod Antipas - FRAUD
1st - 030 - letter of Publius Lentulus - FRAUD
1st - 032 - Letters of Caiaphas - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Letters of Pilate - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Confession of Pilate - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Correspondence between Paul and Seneca - FRAUD
1st - 050 - Correspondence between Seneca and Paul - FRAUD
1st - 064 - Nero fire refs (Tacit.Annals XV) - INTERPOLATION
1st - 075 - Domitian (emp:069-079) "Persecution" - FRAUD
1st - 091 - Josephus Flavius (TF; AJ) - INTERPOLATION
1st - XXX - SUMMARY: All above citations recognised as FRAUD.

The ones in the first century are generally recognised as FRAUD.

The ones in the 2nd and 3rd century are being debated as we speak.

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goathead

um, he just said it was your job.

Im interested and woudl like to hear it though.

I have assembled my job here.

It is a page called "What are the package specifications
for the Fabrication of the Galilaeans".

Read that, and if you have any questions,
let me know what those questions are and
I will do my best to answer them.

ClassicsFiend · 06-25-2007, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The ones in the first century are generally recognised as FRAUD.

Yeah, tell that to real scholars. I spend all my time with profs and grad students, and trust me, those Pliny/Trajan letters are standard history class fare. This is true in classics departments, religious studies departments, and divinity schools.

Some of the stuff you're citing as fraudulent, like rescripts from Jesus -- well, duh. Nobody is going to take that seriously. But that does not mean Constantine's people in particular fabricated it. Just throwing together a hodgepodge of ancient documents, some of which are not historically accurate, does not mean they are all equally useless or fabricated by a specific group of people.

mountainman · 06-25-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClassicsFiend

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The ones in the first century are generally recognised as FRAUD.

Yeah, tell that to real scholars. I spend all my time with profs and grad students, and trust me, those Pliny/Trajan letters are standard history class fare. This is true in classics departments, religious studies departments, and divinity schools.

Some of the stuff you're citing as fraudulent, like rescripts from Jesus -- well, duh. Nobody is going to take that seriously. But that does not mean Constantine's people in particular fabricated it.

Neither does it preclude the historical possibility.

Quote:

Just throwing together a hodgepodge of ancient documents, some of which are not historically accurate, does not mean they are all equally useless or fabricated by a specific group of people.

The list that I quoted was not a hodgepodge list.
It represents a specific set of writings from a series
of modules and sub-modules in a package of literature
which was published under the rule of a despot.

The package was described by the Emperor Julian
as "the fabrication of the Galilaeans". I have written
an article on this, and quoted from it. Did you look
at the quote within context of the larger article?

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06-25-2007, 08:13 PM	#34
ClassicsFiend Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: United States Posts: 30	Hate to say this but... writing "fraud" next to something doesn't make it a fraud.

06-25-2007, 08:15 PM	#35
Goathead Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia, between desert and ocean. Posts: 1,953	um, he just said it was your job. Im interested and woudl like to hear it though.

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