Raydo97

I've been on this site for several weeks now and have noticed many Christians here, in addition to the "infidels." In fact, I've even had a few brief discussions with some of you. I have decided that, since you're here and seem to enjoy engaging in debate, I may as well pick your brains. Although, I don't really anticipate this being much of a debate as it is probably mostly just a matter of opinion.

I grew up in a Baptist family and held that view throughout my childhood and into my early 20's.

Now, and for the past several years, I have been an agnostic. However, I didn't just decide to be an agnostic. I arrived at agnosticism following years of sorting through the evidence and attempting to understand the basic teachings of the world's major religions. I have tried to be as objective as possible and have researched religion from many angles. Over the years, I've pondered the writings of both Christian and Atheist authors.

According to your beliefs and interpretation of biblical scriptures, what's the deal with people who WANT to believe, but are unable? There was a time in my life when I believed, but I had many doubts and nagging questions about religion in general, and Christianity in particular, that I just couldn't answer. I talked to preachers and counselors, but got answers that just didn't seem reasonable.

Another part of this is my total lack of any kind of a "personal relationship" with Jesus or God. During my childhood and teens, I always heard the Christians around me talking about their "personal relationship" with Jesus. They would make references to how it felt and that I would "know when the Lord calls me." Every week at the end of the church service, the preacher would play "Just As I Am" and invite the unsaved to come forward and accept Jesus. I kept asking my mom when I should do it and she said, "You'll know when the time is right. When Jesus comes for your heart, you'll know."

It never happened. I believed in Jesus. I went to church. My friends were Christians. Every week, I waited for some feeling to come to me, but it never happened. So, I simply decided one day to go forward and be saved. I thought maybe the feelings of a "personal relationship" would come after the fact. I prayed for salvation. I told my friends I was a Christian. I was baptized and read my bible. I even WITNESSED to other kids who didn't go to church.

But, through all of this, I never FELT anything. Nothing. This went on for about ten years.

Eventually, I just started to give up hope that I would ever FEEL anything. I started to wonder if anybody ever felt anything. I also started to question some of the teachings. After a while, the whole belief system just collapsed and I was lost. Then, during my studies and attempts to understand religion and Christianity, I began to read books written by atheists. For the first time, the explanations that were offered to my religious questions made sense. What the atheists wrote seemed perfectly logical. It all started to come together in a way that I would never have anticipated.

I was happy and I had answers that made sense. Of course, now I found myself on the other side of the fence looking back in at Christianity and wondering how I ever allowed myself to be involved in it in the first place.

Here's my question in a nutshell:

I'd like to believe in a loving God who looks out for me. Nothing would make me happier than to believe that I have a "personal relationship" with Creator of the Universe and that he loves me. Who wouldn't want that? The problem, if you can call it that, is that, in spite of many years of trying, I have never FELT anything and I can't make any sense of it.

In addition to that, what can I do about the fact that atheist positions and objective (non-religious) explanations of religion and the bible appealed to me and made perfect sense right away? I was naturally drawn to their arguments.

Simply put, I cannot choose to accept something into my heart that my mind rejects. If I honestly try to understand and follow Christianity, but am unable to, what happens then? In your opinion, will God torture someone for eternity just for being an honest doubter?

Why are some people "unable" to believe?

Why would I be unable to FEEL what everyone else seemed to be feeling? (One past explanation: God was testing my faith to see if I would give up on him.)

Using the brain that God supposedly gave me, I have given Christianity many chances for a number of years, but ultimately couldn't make a go of it. I have not "given up my faith" to be rebellious or live a sinful life.

----------------------------

Clarifying Statement:

*My question about eternal damnation/how God will judge me is
based on your belief system and understanding of the bible. I
don't believe in the Christian God and question the existence of
any God at all. I ask this question solely for the understanding
of the Christian perspective on what happens to a person
in this position.

-----------------------------

Thanks. I look forward to reading your thoughts.

seebs

Well, whether or not it's a matter of opinion is a matter of opinion...

That's not an uncommon response to have.

I don't know. Part of the problem here is that the very concept of "belief" can have several different meanings. I "believe that God exists" in some way, but I don't treat it as the same kind of claim as "cats are mammals, which bear their young live in litters". I believe that theological questions are not subject to the kinds of evidence used to form theories about the natural world, and that they are not the same kinds of claims at all. Indeed, I'm not sure that such "belief" is of any use or value.

There's a site I would recommend to your attention:
Real Live Preacher

This site is written by, well, a real live preacher. The reason I recommend it in particular is the relevance of one of the stories posted:

The Preacher's Story

An excerpt is in order:
Read the story; other people have confronted these questions.

I had nearly exactly your experience. I had always been a little unsure of the epistemological basis for Christianity, and I finally concluded it was a sham. I concluded this based on the obvious hypocrisy of the people I was surrounded by, and in particular, by their insistence on hypocrisy; when I told them I wasn't sure I believed, they suggested I go through the confirmation ritual anyway. It seemed to me that, if God existed, He wouldn't much approve of false oaths in His temples, so I declined. If memory serves, they tried to push my parents to "make" me go to confirmation.

This emphasis on external appearances over truth offended me deeply.

She may be right; if she is, then it hasn't happened yet.

However, I know a number of people who have never been sure. I have felt what I believe to be God moving through me. I have found myself moving, or ceasing motion, in ways that were alien to me, but been unafraid, because whatever was moving me was RIGHT in a way that I have never been. I have said things that were not my words, but which were apparently what someone needed to hear.

But that doesn't mean I *know*. That just means I *believe*.

This works for some people, and not for others.

This is also not unheard of. There's two aspects to this. One is that many atheist counter-arguments are, in fact, very good arguments showing the weaknesses of many "proofs" of God.

The other is that, when you are hurt and lonely, an argument that appeals to this will almost always seem persuasive.

I'm a Christian these days, and I *still* sometimes wonder what I'm doing. Christians, as a group, drive me nuts. I can't stand 'em. I mean, I'm a little misanthropic all the time, but... Smug, self-assured, Christians drive me absolutely NUTS. I hate 'em. And I try, and try, not to hate 'em, and sometimes I succeed, but it's a tough battle for me.

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense. I can't make sense of my own existence. I can't tell you why I happen to be a reasonably well-off guy living in America, with good medical care, and the Internet to play with, and not any of the billions of other, more "likely", people I could have been. I don't even know that the question makes sense. But I'm here.

Well, a lot of them are good explanations, and some atheists are VERY good at playing up the emotional side of the argument.

I don't know. I don't think so; I think, for instance, that God made me a skeptic on purpose. He needs a few skeptics now and then, to keep the believers from making shit up and blaming it on Him. I mean, not that we actually keep them from doing this, but we occasionally manage to get a bit of it thrown out again.

The Preacher makes the very good point that there is a lot to be said for being faithful. It turns out that, whether or not you can convince your mind to accept the proposition that "there is a loving God", you can choose to act in the ways suggested by Christian theology; you can love other people, you can try to help those less fortunate than yourself, and you can seek always to become a better person. You can do these things whether or not you believe, and they remain good things *in and of themselves*.

I don't know. I think a lot of it is different types of brains, or different training or experience. It might be that the Calvinists are right, but I find this fairly unlikely.

Another: Some people are much more emotional than others. I almost never "feel" religious the way J. Random Fundie does. That said, if I were offered that certainty, I don't know that I'd take it. The long dark night of the soul is a small price to pay for the ability to understand all those people who don't believe.

Indeed. I am firmly convinced that the people who make the "oh, you just want to be sinful and get away with it" argument are going to be in for a VERY serious talking-to when they meet God. It's one of the most perfectly wrong things there is; it's both false and immoral. Ugh.

Understood. It's a hypothetical question.

I think a lot of the talk about "belief" focuses on the wrong things entirely. If I tell you to believe in me, I'm not asking you to hold to the supposition that I exist; I'm asking you to trust what I tell you. Love your neighbor, and have faith that, if a loving God exists, you will be judged fairly, and if God isn't fair, you never had a chance anyway.

I think the obsession in mainstream Christianity with trying to avoid any sign of "sin" is as much a bondage to sin as the (mythical, I think) people who are so depraved that they can't do anything *but* sin.

If Christianity is, in fact, the truth, then you will know right from wrong, and can choose right. Do that, and leave the angst to people who need angst to feel like they're important.

You ask good questions. I believe it is a major failing of modern, mainstream Christianity that many churches won't even make a realistic effort at answering them.