Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 09-06-2011, 01:02 PM

Just add the concept of perfection to the laundry list of god qualities to see the issue.

Are you sure that good wouldn't be better translated as merciful, in the passages above?

Seems odd to juxtapose the concept of good with the concept of justice.

maryhelena · 09-06-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Page 54: The Arch-Heretic Marcion, by Sebastian Moll.

Conclusion

Let us categorise our observations about Marcion’s doctrine in regard to the distinction between different Gods.

1. All the contemporary sources as well as Irenaeus and Rhodo (who form the non-contemporary sources which are temporally closest) describe Marcion’s system as dualistic. There can thus be no doubt that the tripartite Marcionits system represents a later development after Marcion’s death, just as Rhodo and Hippolytus report.

2. Our earliest source about Marcion’s doctrine (Ptolemy) explicitly speaks of him distinguishing between a good and an evil God. This is confirmed by Irenaeus and at least not denied by any other of the earliest sources.

Footnote (40) It should be noted in this context that Irenaeus is aware of the distinction between a just and a good God, but he clearly attributers it to Cerdo (Adv.haer.I.27,1). This is all the more interesting as in the preceding chapter we have considered the possibility that Cerdo and his followers joined Marcion’s movement. Maybe it was they who brought the idea of a just God into the Marcionite system.

my formatting

Quote:

Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards. He taught that the God proclaimed by the law and the prophets was not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the former was known, but the latter unknown; while the one also was righteous, but the other benevolent.

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself.

my formatting

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:09 PM

Ptolemy does not reference Marcion's proper system as even Moll leaves open "Either Ptolemy actually misunderstood Marcion's doctrine or he is deliberately presenting it wrongly." (p. 48) The reference to Marcion is NOT EXPLICIT. Ptolemy never actually references 'Marcion.' This is another one of Moll's tricks. If you read the sources you'd know that.

It is quite standard to associate evil with the Jewish god. Even Jews do this. He is jealous, angry, vengeful.

The point isn't what Moll says. He's not God. He's just a young scholar who has misrepresented the evidence. I have presented the evidence. You have eyes. Show me where it says in Irenaeus that Marcion is a dualist.

Surely you have the ability to read and think on your own independent of Moll.

dog-on · 09-06-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Page 54: The Arch-Heretic Marcoin, by Sebastian Moll.

Conclusion

Let us categorise our observations about Marcion’s doctrine in regard to the distinction between different Gods.

1. All the contemporary sources as well as Irenaeus and Rhodo (who form the non-contemporary sources which are temporally closest) describe Marcion’s system as dualistic. There can thus be no doubt that the tripartite Marcionits system represents a later development after Marcion’s death, just as Rhodo and Hippolytus report.

2. Our earliest source about Marcion’s doctrine (Ptolemy) explicitly speaks of him distinguishing between a good and an evil God. This is confirmed by Irenaeus and at least not denied by any other of the earliest sources.

Footnote (40) It should be noted in this context that Irenaeus is aware of the distinction between a just and a good God, but he clearly attributers it to Credo (Adv.haer.I.27,1). This is all the more interesting as in the preceding chapter we have considered the possibility that Cerdo and his followers joined Marcion’s movement. Maybe it was they who brought the idea of a just God into the Marcionite system.

my formatting

Quote:

Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards. He taught that the God proclaimed by the law and the prophets was not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the former was known, but the latter unknown; while the one also was righteous, but the other benevolent.

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself.

my formatting

YHWH claims to have created evil in the OT. The god of the OT does take delight in war, is infirm of purpose and is contrary to himself, all very well documented in the OT.

What is blasphemous about that?

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:18 PM

One needn't be a dualist to say that the Jewish God "authored evils." Was Isaiah a dualist when he wrote "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the Lord, that does all these things." My God, this is monotheistic religion 101. What is the matter with people? Don't people know what is in the Bible any longer?

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:22 PM

And with regards to Ptolemy referencing Marcion here is what Moll admits in his stupid book:

Quote:

Although most scholars agree that the second position referred to at the beginning of Ptolemy's letter is Marcion's (see Chapter I), they also mostly agree that Ptolemy is misportraying it. That the Law was given by the Creator is commonly accepted as Marcionite doctrine, but it is felt that Marcion would not have identified the Creator with the Devil/ Adversary (p. 48)

Can't you begin to see how fringe Moll is? He is radical in accepting everything that the Church Fathers say about Marcion but moreover he is eager to turn even any anonymous reference to dualism into a Marcionite allusion. This is simply ridiculous. As I said earlier, Tertullian is the source of all our surviving dualistic references to Marcion. Show me where Irenaeus says that Marcion is a Zoroastrian dualist.

dog-on · 09-06-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

One needn't be a dualist to say that the Jewish God "authored evils." Was Isaiah a dualist when he wrote "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the Lord, that does all these things." My God, this is monotheistic religion 101. What is the matter with people? Don't people know what is in the Bible any longer?

Your God is not the Christian God, Stephan.

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:26 PM

But the question is whether by Marcion pointing to Isaiah as saying that Yahweh created evil that he was a radical dualist like Mani. Jews recognize that their god has two sides to his personality. He is still not Satan!

dog-on · 09-06-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But the question is whether by Marcion pointing to Isaiah as saying that Yahweh created evil that he was a radical dualist like Mani. Jews recognize that their god has two sides to his personality. He is still not Satan!

I do not believe that Marcion thought of YHWH as Satan. I do believe that, based on said foibles, Marcion viewed YHWH as less than perfect, ie. not the Christian God, the 'perfect' Father of the Christ.

I do not view this as dualism. I view it as distinguishing between the various powers.

stephan huller · 09-06-2011, 01:35 PM

I agree. I wasn't addressing you really. I am speaking out loud to all those people who just assume that Marcion was a dualist. I am actually now quite thankful that Mary Helena persisted in defending this Moll. I would never have scrutinized Irenaeus.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-06-2011, 01:02 PM	#41
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Just add the concept of perfection to the laundry list of god qualities to see the issue. Are you sure that good wouldn't be better translated as merciful, in the passages above? Seems odd to juxtapose the concept of good with the concept of justice.

09-06-2011, 01:09 PM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Ptolemy does not reference Marcion's proper system as even Moll leaves open "Either Ptolemy actually misunderstood Marcion's doctrine or he is deliberately presenting it wrongly." (p. 48) The reference to Marcion is NOT EXPLICIT. Ptolemy never actually references 'Marcion.' This is another one of Moll's tricks. If you read the sources you'd know that. It is quite standard to associate evil with the Jewish god. Even Jews do this. He is jealous, angry, vengeful. The point isn't what Moll says. He's not God. He's just a young scholar who has misrepresented the evidence. I have presented the evidence. You have eyes. Show me where it says in Irenaeus that Marcion is a dualist. Surely you have the ability to read and think on your own independent of Moll.

09-06-2011, 01:18 PM	#45
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	One needn't be a dualist to say that the Jewish God "authored evils." Was Isaiah a dualist when he wrote "I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I am the Lord, that does all these things." My God, this is monotheistic religion 101. What is the matter with people? Don't people know what is in the Bible any longer?

09-06-2011, 01:26 PM	#48
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But the question is whether by Marcion pointing to Isaiah as saying that Yahweh created evil that he was a radical dualist like Mani. Jews recognize that their god has two sides to his personality. He is still not Satan!

09-06-2011, 01:35 PM	#50
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I agree. I wasn't addressing you really. I am speaking out loud to all those people who just assume that Marcion was a dualist. I am actually now quite thankful that Mary Helena persisted in defending this Moll. I would never have scrutinized Irenaeus.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.