Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 01-10-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

If God (and you were sure it was him) appeared to you and told you to kill your neighbor’s infant son, would you do it? Why? Please do not respond to the above without briefly addressing this question.

I'd tell him to go do it himself.
Why? because it is claimed by his books, and by his followers that He is the one that is in absolute and total control.
Thus he is the one behind, causing and responsible for all the innocent infants that are dying at the average rate of two every second.
So to a being so powereful, and self-evidently so evil, in taking the lives of infants at the rate of over 100,000 per day, what little difference, taking another?

Dogfish · 01-10-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Note: It amazes me that critics accuse God of murdering children, but yet support abortion which has surpass 50 million in america. This reveals their psuedo quest of righteousness. But like Homosexuality, they employ this as another means to attack God. :wave:

It amazes me that believers think that non-believers are on some quest for righteousness. And that we are attacking god. We're attacking your puny rationalizations for a god, and the best way to do this is to assume it exists according to you source-book, and then show what a paper-thin idea it is. And do you really think all "critics" of god support abortion? Just another baseless assertion to make you feel better about your beliefs, I guess.

Peter Kirby · 01-10-2008, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Hello, I’m still new here so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

No need to apologize; if we didn't rehash, we would have much less to chew.

My initial reading of the title was that this might be some piece about the Crucifixion and God's sacrifice for the redemption of humankind.

But instead it is about torture mandated in prophetic revelation to particular persons, as I understand it?

The short answer does duck your question: No man has seen God. There is no show that could be given that could assure any man that a particular short set of instruction, in a vision or otherwise, came direct from God's output.

Because of this, nobody can defend their action with a mere "God told me so". Their action must gibe with their conscience and the commands of their society and/or they must accept full responsibility for them.

regards,
Peter Kirby

youngalexander · 01-11-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The real fact is that by Christians claiming that the Bible is the timeless word of God, they do more harm to the credibility and beauty of the scritpures than anyone. It is very easy to appreciate the scritpures as works of ancient men. It is impossible to appreciate them as the works of a god.

Indeed. You grow in my estimation.

The long journey of everyperson, that is worth contemplation.

Darklighter · 01-11-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

It amazes me that believers think that non-believers are on some quest for righteousness. And that we are attacking god. We're attacking your puny rationalizations for a god, and the best way to do this is to assume it exists according to you source-book, and then show what a paper-thin idea it is. And do you really think all "critics" of god support abortion? Just another baseless assertion to make you feel better about your beliefs, I guess.

Hell yes. It was STUDY OF THE BIBLE that started me on the road to disbelief. Study of science and other things only confirmed that which I had been tying to ignore for so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Hello, I’m still new here so I apologize if this has been discussed before.

No need to apologize; if we didn't rehash, we would have much less to chew.

My initial reading of the title was that this might be some piece about the Crucifixion and God's sacrifice for the redemption of humankind.

But instead it is about torture mandated in prophetic revelation to particular persons, as I understand it?

The short answer does duck your question: No man has seen God. There is no show that could be given that could assure any man that a particular short set of instruction, in a vision or otherwise, came direct from God's output.

Because of this, nobody can defend their action with a mere "God told me so". Their action must gibe with their conscience and the commands of their society and/or they must accept full responsibility for them.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Haha, I realized that my title was a bit misleading right after I posted it. Perhaps I should clarify my thinking behind it. For the sake of arguement here, I equate 'sacrifice' with 'ritual killing', yet it's still plain ol' killing. I know there is a technical difference, but I just find it difficult to believe that a god who expresses an apparent aversion to child sacrifice, as made clear at Jeremiah 7:31, could sanction the slaughter of countless (thousands?) of defenseless children but in a non-ritualistic fashion. It just doesn't make moral sense.

I should also add (a point I intended to make earlier) that to make the "That was then; This is now" arguement is ridiculous, because it implies that God changes, which conflicts with the notion that God is perfection (If he was perfect, why the need to change? Or is it man that has changed?).

storytime · 01-11-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Wow. Where to begin. I didn't think it would be this easy.

Here goes... What we have, by your logic, is a case of a righteous man tapping into evil forces (Satan/demons, :devil1: - whatever) to kill on a whim. This is STRICTLY forbidden by Mosaic law, punishable by death in fact. Yet is Elisha considered bad? No. Did God punish/reprimand/even mention Elishas "sin"? No. Elisha was of God. His power to "call down evil" was from God. If memory serves, God himself is even spoken of as "calling down evil" upon the unrighteous. God "cursed" the ground after Adam & Eve sinned. I've never heard in my years of going to church, and researching, that literalists think Elisha acted inappropriately in this case. Quite the contrary in fact.

Second, you desribe the power to "curse" as real. What documented proof do we have that is available to back up this claim? (I'm speaking of the mystical "curse", since it can also mean simply saying negative things to someone.)

But what else does?

Ms. Darklighter I in no way said that Elisha was tapping into "dark powers." Rather it was dark powers acting on the curse of Elisha. Which is why Jesus is against curseing. Even men of God sin somtime. Who do you believe was behind the temptation of David to have Uriah killed for Bath-Sheba? God or the Devil? Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with Hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael cheif enemy of the Israelites? What spirit was behind Balaam (who was a prophet of God although corrupt) who cursed people for money? No man is immune from evil influences, and all sin. Evil will exploit the sin of man which has been the case from the beginning which is why Paul says:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES." Ephesians 6

One of the pieces of this armor is the "breastplate of righteousness." Righteousness (God's moral laws) prevents us from being used by these wicked forces. When you sin you bring these forces into action. And since "ALL men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" no one is completly out of reach of these forces...including Elisha.

So no Ms. Darklighter Elisha did not tap into evil forces (for that would be witchcraft and satanism) evil forces exploited his sin...as they do us all. :wave:

"Who was behind Abraham sin to sleep with hagar that resulted in the birth of Ishmael chief enemy of the Israelites?"

Well, the obvious would be Sarah, Abraham's wife. Sarah thought it perfectly righteous to use her handmaid Hagar as incubator for a son. And wouldn't you know it, ol Abraham had no objections.

Christians have created an enemy where none is presented. In fact, the story says that Ishmael was blessed before Isaac ever came along and that Abraham considered Hagar as a wife, as did Sarah. Abraham had other wives also, but you Christians will not let go of the hatred you have for Muslims in Ishmael. You've carried your racist doctrine through your version of the bible story to the extent of your leader Bush pumped-up to carry out your wishes in pre-emptive war on innocent Iraqi's just because the Right Wing believes a story of imagined cursing..

Your hatred and death-cult will one day kick back in your face, or your ass, imo.

storytime · 01-11-2008, 03:16 PM

Question:

All those thousands of children that Israelites sacrificed to Yahweh, why did the prophets not protest? Wasn't it only when the Israelites sacrificed their children to other gods that sent the prophets into raving lunatics of protest?

Peter Kirby · 01-11-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

I just find it difficult to believe that a god . . . could sanction the slaughter of countless (thousands?) of defenseless children

I don't believe that this happened, whether or not it may be suggested within the Bible.

regards,
Peter Kirby

WishboneDawn · 01-11-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Question:

All those thousands of children that Israelites sacrificed to Yahweh, why did the prophets not protest? Wasn't it only when the Israelites sacrificed their children to other gods that sent the prophets into raving lunatics of protest?

?

I'm not one for scripture quotes but you provide some to explain this?

storytime · 01-11-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Question:

All those thousands of children that Israelites sacrificed to Yahweh, why did the prophets not protest? Wasn't it only when the Israelites sacrificed their children to other gods that sent the prophets into raving lunatics of protest?

?

I'm not one for scripture quotes but you provide some to explain this?

You might read the book of Ezekiel the prophet who blasts the Israelites for their child sacrifice to Molech- a different God than Yahweh of the Jews. Exekiel protests their idolatry of Molech and demands that the Israelites choose which God to worship. He doesn't say that child sacrifice is wrong, only that the Israelites should sacrifice to the god of Jacob.

From what I have read, child sacrifice was a practice in the middle east and by many different groups. And evidently it was a hard thing to stamp out. Along with human sacrifice there was animal sacrifice and this last form still existing into the days of Christ where even he did not expell it but encouraged it by sending his disciples to find a lamb for passover observance or a feast day or something. Paul in maintaining his Jewish tradition also returned from his journeys and to Jerusalem to partake in sacrifice of the lamb. It was a thing about celebrating the coming out of Egypt, and how God had killed all the firstborn in Egypt.

Christians see the human sacrifice being exampled in Jesus crucifixtion. And celebrate this human sacrifice each year.

There is a group of Samaritans who still practice animal sacrifice. Google "Samaritans sacrifice" for information.

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01-11-2008, 03:16 PM	#57
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Question: All those thousands of children that Israelites sacrificed to Yahweh, why did the prophets not protest? Wasn't it only when the Israelites sacrificed their children to other gods that sent the prophets into raving lunatics of protest?

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