Matt Stone

The story is obviously poorly thought out, as there are discrepancies within it that are the direct cause of such controversial discussions.

That being said, there are plenty of discrepancies in every conversation I have with people when I'm trying to explain some aspect of work, or some aspect of my hobbies, etc., so it's just an inherent part of human communication. However, if someone was writing a story they anticipated would be debated and questioned, they might put a bit more effort into shoring up the bits that didn't gel, if they were educated well enough to find their own flaws. Further, it's probably unlikely that the author(s) thought they'd ever be questioned, or that they thought their story would still be retold this long after it's original publishing. Also unlikely is their own relative level of education that would allow them to realize how flawed the story is, automatically eliminating the idea that they could proofread it and fix the errors.

So.

I still think, though, especially as my children approach young adulthood and begin the transition from child to young teens, has an interesting insight into that transition...

I told my daughter, who just turned 15, that sex and childbirth are pretty much the only "secrets" remaining to a child as they approach adulthood. My son, 12, is still on the fence about Santa (we've deliberately tried to shield the kids from losing all of their innocence too early, without sheltering them from some of the harsher realities in the world; when confronted by other kids who disbelieve in Santa, we point out that those other kids believe a guy was killed by the state, nailed to a tree, buried in a cave, and got up to walk around again... which belief sounds stranger?), is still focused on playing with his friends and his XBox, likes girls but can do without them, etc.

The "paradise" of childhood is lost when the "child" becomes aware of adult things and begins to rationalize like an adult, or in the case of Adam and Eve, when they begin to see things as a "god." Parents are like gods to small children, so in the story there is an extraordinarily simplistic parent/child relationship wherein the parent forbids an action (early childhood development), the child questions (the serpent's conversation with the female, who matures more rapidly than the male), the child rebels and does what was forbidden, thus "killing" their childhood and making them the same as the parent.

If that's not growing up in a nutshell, I'm not sure what is. :huh:

Dogfish

Ahhh, a sacrificial lamb. How quaint.

angelo

Your kid is 12 and still not sure of Santa's existence? I am now 59 years young, and became agnostic at age 12 or younger. I spent the first 8 years of my life in Italy where we didn't have a Santa, but something called a Befana, who left either coal if we were bad in a sock left by the chimney, or a toy if we were good. It spoiled it for me one January night when I spied my mum putting a toy in my sock. I knew then that this Befana was not true.
A bit later God went the same way when I read the bible from cover to cover. Far from being awestruck, it turned me into a heathen, infidel or unbeliever, full stop. I understand this notion of letting children grow naturally, beliefs and all because you think you'd rob them of their childhood innocence otherwise. But I told my children as soon as possible about the facts of life, that there is no such thing as the supernatural, God or anything else that can't be proven, and to always keep an open mind no matter what.
All the best, Angelo.

Matt Stone

Let me clarify...

My son has been a self-professed atheist for at least the last 3 years. I'm reasonably sure he's "not" actually believed in Santa for some time, given that he is particulary insightful, but I think he's continuing to "believe" for his parents' sake... We've gone to great lengths to maintain the illusion, for the sole sake of a) allowing children to be children and believe and indulge in childish things, and b) be allowing a gateway through which belief in other, far more difficult-to-believe-in things, can be refuted.

Children already have too much sex, booze, and responsibility thrust upon them. Children should be allowed to play as much as they can, as children and not "young adults," for as long as possible. You only get one childhood, and it really isn't very long before childhood is replaced with a life wherein you must make special efforts to enjoy things even half as much as you did as a child. So why not experience it as long as possible, without sacrificing, of course, the reasoning skills that will be required as a responsible adult citizen?

My children have both used their "belief" in Santa and other mythical holiday figures as refutations of their poorly indoctrinated religious school-mates when said school-mates have attempted to confer their beliefs onto others. Really, though a "real" Santa would likely be prosecuted for stalker and pedophilic behavior, it's a potentially workable ruse. Getting up from crucifixion, rising from the dead, walking on water? A little harder to do...

As for the supernatural in general? Well, I've tried to raise my kids not so much with belief, per se, but with a general disposition that there's still plenty we don't know enough about and to take a position that something "can't" exist or "can't" be explained, is to presume to know more than we do. One man's magic becomes another man's technology. I believe there are some things that have yet to be fully investigated, and so could be proven "true" after a fashion with a sutiable inquiry and scientific evaluation. That doesn't mean all the quackery out there is real, just that I'm not dismissing everything off hand... Unless it's really bullshit, in which case... :wave:

Enjoy!

:devil1::angel::devil1:

angelo

Children do grow up quicker these days, it seems. That's why I believe and have faith that regardless of any brainwashing by adults, kids WILL eventualy make up their own minds, and hopefully reject the dogma and stigma of religion.
Yes by all means keep an open mind, but not too open that your brains fall out.
But remember this. In all of human history on this piece of dust we call Earth,
orbiting an average star of no significance, there has never ever been, or in my opinion, never will occur an event that's broken the laws of nature.
In a nutshell. There's never been a miracle that has been scientifically proven.
Regards. Angelo :wave: