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Old 11-11-2007, 08:13 PM   #121
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Where in any Jewish text, canonical or non canonical, is Judas proclaimed as Messiah?
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Rabbinical tradition distinguishes also between the regular high priest and the priest anointed for the special purpose of leading in war—mashuaḥ milḥamah (So�*ah, viii. 1; Yoma, 72b, 73a). According to tradition (see Josippon, xx.; Chronicle of Jerahmeel, xci. 3; compare I Macc. iii. 55), Judas Maccabeus was anointed as priest for the war before he proclaimed the words prescribed in Deut. xx. 1-9.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...=1559&letter=A
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:43 PM   #122
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I'm not sure that I know what "spiritual" anointing means, but yes it's more than OK to note that Jesus was called Christ even in the absence of anointing with oil, since that's what Luke and Paul and Mark and Matthew and John ... say is OK to think about those they call Messiah.

Jeffrey
But in the gospel narrative, Jesus was anointed (all your wrangling to the contrary),
My wrangling was about your claim that the word chrsym was the word used by John & Mark and that it was also the word that that stands behind the particular instances of the English verb word "to anoint" that you found in an English translation of the Gospels.

And yes, the John and Mark have a story of Jesus having a body part of his (head in Mark, feet in John) covered with nard. If you want to call this an "anointing", go ahead. But this activity does not represent a consecration of any kind, let alone for an office. As John and Mark themselves say, it represents the embalming of a corpse that Jews administered to a deceased member of their family. Why are you refusing to admit this?

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by Mary M (or Mary B, or another woman, take your pick,
I'd prefer to actually listen to what Mark says when I'm reading Mark and not make a choice for him, especially a choice I want to be true. And Mark simply does not say who the woman was. But, contrary to what you want to belkieve, he does distinguish her from Mary M who Mark presents in Mk 16 as one of the three women who, after Jesus is buried, go to Jesus' tomb to embalm him. Unlike the Markan Mary M s who, in going to the tomb to carry out the embalming of Jesus body, shows she thinks that Jesus is dead and not, as he said he would be, raised, the woman who pours out Nard on Jesus at in Simon's house in Bethany does believe. That's why she's doing what she's doing. She accepts Jesus resurrection and after death Galilee appearance and believes with a fierceness that helps her over come proprieties that there won't be an opportunity to do this to him, to embalm him, once he dies. And BTW, as Dom Crossan has argued, that's why she is held up as the example of faithfulness and as deserving of praise that Mark makes her out to be (where as Mary M , along with the other Mary and Salome, is held up as an example of unfaithfulness).

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Think about women and anointings for burial. In Mark's story Jesus had told the disciples three times and very clearly that he would be executed in Jerusalem and that he would rise after three days. If one believed those prophecies, to come with ointments is certainly an act of love but hardly of faith. It is, for Mark, a failure in belief. But before he tells of that failure by named women in 16:1-8, he tells the above story of stunning faith. This unnamed woman believes Jesus and knows that, if she does not anoint him for burial now, she will never be able to do it later. That is why she gets that astonishing statement of praise, one unparalleled in the entire gospel: "wherever the good news is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in remembrance of her." That accolade is given because, in Mark's gospel, this is the first complete and unequivocal act of faith in Jesus' suffering and rising destiny. It is the only such full act before that of the equally unnamed centurion beneath the cross in 14:39b: "Truly this man was God's Son!" [John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, p. 185]
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and it was either his head or feet, and Simon was either a leper or a Pharisee, or it was actually Lazarus' house, who cares?) ,
I do. And so should you if you want to understand what an individual evangelist is actually saying.

and Jesus said she should always be remembered for it. I asked you why, and you have not answered that yet.[/QUOTE]

See above.

Jeffrey
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:19 PM   #123
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[QUOTE=Magdlyn;4948385]
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post

Where in any Jewish text, canonical or non canonical, is Judas proclaimed as Messiah?
Quote:
Rabbinical tradition distinguishes also between the regular high priest and the priest anointed for the special purpose of leading in war—mashuaḥ milḥamah (So�*ah, viii. 1; Yoma, 72b, 73a). According to tradition (see Josippon, xx.; Chronicle of Jerahmeel, xci. 3; compare I Macc. iii. 55), Judas Maccabeus was anointed as priest for the war before he proclaimed the words prescribed in Deut. xx. 1-9.
Yesssirr. A 10thand a 14th century CE text that is not supported by 1 Macc. 3:55 (After this Judas appointed officers among the people, over thousands, over hundreds, over fifties, and over tens), now that's gooooood evidence for what Jews in the second temple period believed about Judas!! YESSSSSIR!

And 3rd to 6th century CE rabinnical traditions (under whose name/authority, BTW?) about the mashuaḥ milḥamah rather than the King Messiah/Son of David (the rabbinical term for the Messianic deliverer) which say nothing about Judas as either mashuaḥ milḥamah or King Messiah/Son of David, used to build a case that Judas was proclaimed in his own time as The Messiah, Messiah, Son of David, yep, good stuff!

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Old 11-11-2007, 10:39 PM   #124
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Hi Toto,

It appears that in transcribing the quote from Zetzel's review, a couple of the punctuation marks changed. This happens sometimes going from PDF to Microsoft Word. As a result of these changes in punctuation marks, one could possibly get the impression, I suppose, that Zetzel is not supporting Wiseman's contention that Catullus wrote Laureolus. Therefore, here is the quote of his clear support for Wiseman with the proper punctuation marks and the pertinent text in bold.
Now with the proper punctuation marks, it is perfectly clear that Zetzel is supporting Wiseman's contention that Catullus did indeed write the mime plays. That Zetzel disagrees on other elements of Wiseman's argument is clear, but quite irrelevant to the fact that he supports Wiseman's contention that Catullus wrote Laureolis which is the only issue we are concerned about.

Zetzel even repeats his support for Wiseman's position that Catullus wrote the mime plays Phasma and Laureolus later in the review. I have again placed the relevant passage in bold.
as Zetzel writes, "As far as the mimes themselves are concerned...W. is certainly right..." and "Phasma and Laureolus are certain titles for Catullan mimes," I think we may say without reservation that he supports Wiseman's contention that Catullus wrote Laureolus.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Jeffrey
Jeffrey: you originally provided a quote from this article in a particularly badly formatted post, but when I read it, it did appear that Zetzel agreed that Catullus wrote the mime Laureolus, although he disagreed on some larger point; while your other sources disagreed.

So what's with the banghead?
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:12 AM   #125
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:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Jeffrey
Jeffrey: you originally provided a quote from this article in a particularly badly formatted post, but when I read it, it did appear that Zetzel agreed that Catullus wrote the mime Laureolus, although he disagreed on some larger point; while your other sources disagreed.

So what's with the banghead?
You really don't see what Jay has once again done to get a text to say what he wants it to say?

Jeffrey
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Old 11-12-2007, 06:40 AM   #126
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Leaving aside the matter of whether you've begged the question with your claim about Greek pronunciation of the two words (you know this how?, do you confuse a noun for an adjective, no matter how similarly pronounced, especially when you hear anyone use these words in a sentence?
Check the very concrete example
of P.Oxy 3035
And this proves what regarding your claim that an adjective would have been confused with a noun and that Christianity was known by outsiders as the "religion of the good"?

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Old 11-12-2007, 07:59 AM   #127
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Default Fwiw

I have asked Jay to check his claims that Zeztel supports Wiseman's thesis regarding the identity of Gaius Valerius Catullus with Zeztel himself. I even provided Jay with Zeztel's address so that he might do so.

But seeing that Jay has no inclination to do so (any guesses why?), I took the bull by the horns and contacted Zeztel myself.

For the record -- and so that no one can accuse me of misrepresentation of Jay's claims -- here is what I wrote:

Quote:
Dear Professor Zetzel ,

Please for give me for intruding on your time for what in the end might seem a rather trivial issue, but I've been in dispute with a correspondent about his interpretation (and the means by which he arrives at it) of something you said in your review in Classical Philology of T.P. Wiseman's book Catullus and His World, (namely, as my correspondent quotes it, "W. is almost certainly right, and his recognition of the mime as a serious literary form in the late Republic [here and in "Who Was Crassicius Pansa?" TAPA 115 (1985): 187-96] is of considerable interest") and I'm seeking your help in resolving the matter.

My correspondent has asserted in no uncertain terms that you agree with Wiseman in Wiseman's identification of the Roman poet Gaius Valerius Catullus with the Catullus whom Juvenal tells us penned the mime Laureolus and have stated as much in your review of his book. More than that, my correspondent has also concluded that what you "say" about Wiseman's thesis on the identity of the two figures could be adduced to support my correspondent's claim that the Laureolus was written circa 50 B.C.E. (See here).

I have pointed out to him (see here) that you have said no such thing and that he has made you "say" what you did not say not only by ignoring what you wrote about Wiseman's thesis elsewhere in your review, but by selectively quoting and misreading what you said about Wiseman being correct with respect to another issue altogether (i.e., to the issue of the importance in the late republic of the genre of mime).

But he insists that he has not misread and misquoted you and that his claim that you say "that Wiseman is almost certainly right that Laureolus was written by the poet [Gaius Valerius] Catullus" is true. (See here).

I wonder, then, if you'd do me the kindness of clarifying the matter. You do not support Wiseman's claim that Gaius Valerius Catullus and the author of the Laureolus are the same person, yes?. And you do not support the idea, even should you accept the identity of the two figures, that the Laureolus was written as early as 50 B.C.E. Moreover, would you agree with me that my correspondent has misread you when he asserts -- and has used selective quotation in order to get you to say -- that you support Weisman's thesis on the identity of Gaius Valerius Catullus?

I thank you in advance for any time and attention you may devote to these matters.

Yours sincerely,

Jeffrey Gibson

I'll post any reply from Zeztel that I receive.

Jeffrey
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:21 AM   #128
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Default Dr. Zetzel's Reply

Hi All

Here is Dr. Zetzel's reply and the email I sent him this morning.


Dear Dr. Raskin:

I still think that Wiseman's suggestion about mime is plausible,
although there can be no proof one way or the other. The objection to
it is based on the (false) idea that what we have of Catullus is all that
there ever was, and it doesn't fit the still-lingering Romantic
Catullus--or even the post-modern one. Wiseman's idea seems to me to
have been largely dropped, and I don't think it's widely accepted--at
least, it doesn't come up in most writing about Catullus.

James Zetzel

Jay D Raskin wrote:
> Hi Dr. Zetzel,
>
> I apologize for taking up your time, but I have a question in regards
> to a 1988 review you wrote of "Catullus and His World: A Reappraisal"
> by T. P. Wiseman.
>
> In the review, you seemed to me to express support for Wiseman's idea
> that Catullus wrote the mime plays "Phasma" and "Laureolus"
> I would like to know if that was your opinion and if it still is your
> opinion.
>
> Also, I am wondering if the idea that Catullus wrote mimes is still a
> controversial one among Classicists or if it has become more generally
> accepted.
>
> Thank you any information you can give me in regards to these
questions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dr. Jay Raskin
> Adjunct Philosophy Professor
> Valencia Community College
>
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:29 AM   #129
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Hi All

Here is Dr. Zetzel's reply and the email I sent him this morning.
I note that your question stacks the deck by not telling Zeztel whet you really are arguing. You ask him if "Catullus" wrote the mime Laureolus. That is not under contention given the evidence from Juvenal. The question is whether this Catullus is Gailus Valeriius Catullus and whether, even if so, there is any good reason to think that he wrote it in 50BCE.


Jeffrey

Quote:
Dear Dr. Raskin:

I still think that Wiseman's suggestion about mime is plausible,
although there can be no proof one way or the other. The objection to
it is based on the (false) idea that what we have of Catullus is all that
there ever was, and it doesn't fit the still-lingering Romantic
Catullus--or even the post-modern one. Wiseman's idea seems to me to
have been largely dropped, and I don't think it's widely accepted--at
least, it doesn't come up in most writing about Catullus.

James Zetzel

Jay D Raskin wrote:
> Hi Dr. Zetzel,
>
> I apologize for taking up your time, but I have a question in regards
> to a 1988 review you wrote of "Catullus and His World: A Reappraisal"
> by T. P. Wiseman.
>
> In the review, you seemed to me to express support for Wiseman's idea
> that Catullus wrote the mime plays "Phasma" and "Laureolus"
> I would like to know if that was your opinion and if it still is your
> opinion.
>
> Also, I am wondering if the idea that Catullus wrote mimes is still a
> controversial one among Classicists or if it has become more generally
> accepted.
>
> Thank you any information you can give me in regards to these
questions.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dr. Jay Raskin
> Adjunct Philosophy Professor
> Valencia Community College
>
[/QUOTE]
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:35 AM   #130
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Jeffrey: you originally provided a quote from this article in a particularly badly formatted post, but when I read it, it did appear that Zetzel agreed that Catullus wrote the mime Laureolus, although he disagreed on some larger point; while your other sources disagreed.

So what's with the banghead?
You really don't see what Jay has once again done to get a text to say what he wants it to say?

Jeffrey
I see that Jay has quoted the actual words, and there is an obvious interpretation of those words.

The subsequent email from Zetzel confirms this interpretation - that W.'s idea is plausible, although in the time since this article was written, it has not been adopted by others in the field.

It has been my experience that academics will rarely take a more definitive stand than this.

But I thought that we all agreed that this is not a real issue. There was a popular mime that involved a crucifixion, that made enough of an impression on a number of people that we have a record of it. It might have been written by the more famous and academically well-regarded Catullus, or by another Catullus.

eta - your charge about stacking the decks is unfounded. Zetzel understood the question.
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