Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tyler Durden · 11-03-2003, 12:55 AM

Starboy, in essence you are saying no thinking is involved within the conscious actions of the hand and observation. Could you be any more of a self-contradictory caricature of a Sophist?

Starboy · 11-03-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
Could you be any more of a self-contradictory caricature of a Sophist?

I have no idea as to what a self-contradictory sophist is. Care to elaborate.

Starboy

Starboy · 11-03-2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
Starboy, in essence you are saying no thinking is involved within the conscious actions of the hand and observation.

Tyler, please explain how you could logically come to that conclusion based on that one sentence.

Starboy

Hugo Holbling · 11-03-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Hugo, I applaud your goal of actually knowing something about reality.

Thank you for talking down to me, Starboy. I already understand the mathematics and theory, as i explained before, so all i was asking for is a textbook that includes all the elements.

Starboy · 11-03-2003, 09:00 AM

Sorry if you took my comment the wrong way. If you already understand QM then why the need for book recommendations? Incidentally, have you read Dirac's book? I especially like his closing remarks, even though it has yet to come to pass. They constructed a theory better than they knew.

Starboy

Starboy · 11-03-2003, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
Could you be any more of a self-contradictory caricature of a Sophist?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
Main Entry: soph�ist
Pronunciation: 's�-fist
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin sophista, from Greek sophistEs, literally, expert, wise man, from sophizesthai to become wise, deceive, from sophos clever, wise
Date: 1542
1 capitalized : any of a class of ancient Greek teachers of rhetoric, philosophy, and the art of successful living prominent about the middle of the 5th century B.C. for their adroit subtle and allegedly often specious reasoning
2 : PHILOSOPHER, THINKER
3 : a captious or fallacious reasoner

Interesting that sophist is defined as a persion of specious reasoning and also as a philosopher. Is there a connection?

Starboy

Hugo Holbling · 11-03-2003, 09:27 AM

The scope of this thread is quite clear in the OP, i think. If anyone wants to argue philosophy vs. science yet again (as if it isn't a false dilemma to begin with) i ask that they take it to the Philosophy forum or open another thread here. Otherwise, please allow this discussion to stay on-topic.

Jesse · 11-03-2003, 10:33 AM

There are a bunch of quantum books I've seen on amazon or in my local college bookstore that might fit the bill, although I haven't actually read any of them (I think some of them advocate specific interpretations, while others try to cover all of them):

The Quantum Challenge: Modern Research on the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics by George Greenstein and Arthur Zajonc

Foundations and Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics by Gennaro Auletta

Lectures on Quantum Theory: Mathematical and Structural Foundations by Chris Isham

Quantum Theory by David Bohm

Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics by John Bell

Quantum Mechanics and Experience by David Albert

The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics by Roland Omnes

Interpreting the Quantum World by Jeffrey Bub

Consistent Quantum Theory by Robert Griffiths

Tyler Durden · 11-03-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
I have no idea as to what a self-contradictory sophist is. Care to elaborate.

Starboy

A sophist was the classical blackguard villain in Plato's dialogues.

A self-contradictory person is someone who makes statements that contradicts his own position.

Add the above ingredients and you get you.

Tyler Durden · 11-03-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Tyler, please explain how you could logically come to that conclusion based on that one sentence.

Starboy

Premise: "The brain and the hand are connected to understanding in a way that the mind will never understand."

Conclusion: The connection with the brain and the hand to the understanding is independent of the mind.

11-03-2003, 09:27 AM	#17
Hugo Holbling Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Self-banned in 2005 Posts: 1,344	Enough... The scope of this thread is quite clear in the OP, i think. If anyone wants to argue philosophy vs. science yet again (as if it isn't a false dilemma to begin with) i ask that they take it to the Philosophy forum or open another thread here. Otherwise, please allow this discussion to stay on-topic.

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11-03-2003, 12:55 AM	#11
Tyler Durden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: I am Jack's ID Posts: 592	Starboy, in essence you are saying no thinking is involved within the conscious actions of the hand and observation. Could you be any more of a self-contradictory caricature of a Sophist?

11-03-2003, 09:00 AM	#15
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Sorry if you took my comment the wrong way. If you already understand QM then why the need for book recommendations? Incidentally, have you read Dirac's book? I especially like his closing remarks, even though it has yet to come to pass. They constructed a theory better than they knew. Starboy

11-03-2003, 10:33 AM	#18
Jesse Moderator - Science Discussions Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Providence, RI, USA Posts: 9,908	There are a bunch of quantum books I've seen on amazon or in my local college bookstore that might fit the bill, although I haven't actually read any of them (I think some of them advocate specific interpretations, while others try to cover all of them): The Quantum Challenge: Modern Research on the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics by George Greenstein and Arthur Zajonc Foundations and Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics by Gennaro Auletta Lectures on Quantum Theory: Mathematical and Structural Foundations by Chris Isham Quantum Theory by David Bohm Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics by John Bell Quantum Mechanics and Experience by David Albert The Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics by Roland Omnes Interpreting the Quantum World by Jeffrey Bub Consistent Quantum Theory by Robert Griffiths

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