Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-29-2007, 02:03 PM

I am very unclear what xians here actually believe. OK, comments on this please:

Quote:

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association believes:

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
• In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
• That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.
• That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.
• In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.
• We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.
• In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

Yahzi · 05-29-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am very unclear what xians here actually believe.

So are our Xians here.

Me, I'll settle for a yes-or-no answer to the following:

"Did Jesus actually get nailed to a cross? In real life - no pretends!"

Febble · 05-29-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahzi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am very unclear what xians here actually believe.

So are our Xians here.

Me, I'll settle for a yes-or-no answer to the following:

"Did Jesus actually get nailed to a cross? In real life - no pretends!"

OK: yes. I don't find the case that there was no Jesus and no crucifixion convincing at all.

JamesBannon · 05-29-2007, 04:44 PM

*shrug* not a Christian (obviously) but I don't see a reason to doubt that there was a historic Jesus something like that narrated in the gospels.

Biff the unclean · 05-29-2007, 05:39 PM

And yet historic Jesus remains an assumption with no actual historic person to pin it on.

I don't find the half crucifixion convincing at all.

Joe Bloe · 05-30-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Graham Evangelistic Association

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
• In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
• That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.
• That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.
• In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.
• We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.
• In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

I used to believe all that. I read through precisely this sort of list and said "yes, of course it is all true, obviously." But that was when I was a child and thought like a child and reasoned like a child. I've long since grown up and put childish ways behind me. And now I just cannot fathom other adults, people who often are otherwise sane and rational, people who can look at other religions and recognize the obvious ridiculousness of their beliefs ... these adults can look at this list and find it remotely believable. It just boggles my mind. It's like saying:

I believe that
• Reindeer can fly
• A fat elf enters houses through chimneys, leaves toys, eats cookies, then exits through the chimney
• etc

I mean, can they really be serious? The Bible is infallible? Have they ever actually read the damned thing? God is both his own father and his own son? The guilty are saved from punishment by accepting an innocent substitute? There is anything particularly or exclusively Christian about having concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen?

ksen · 05-30-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am very unclear what xians here actually believe. OK, comments on this please:

Quote:

The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association believes:

• The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.
• In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
• That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.
• That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.
• In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.
• We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.
• In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

Sure, I can accept all of that.

ELECTROGOD · 05-30-2007, 09:04 AM

If Billy believes that the Bible is the "infallible word of god" then he ought to check out these links that clearly show what a utterly FALLIBLE pile of crap it really is:

http://www.members.aol.com/ckbloomfld

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...istencies.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...gan/intro.html

Doug Shaver · 05-30-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am very unclear what xians here actually believe. OK, comments on this please

It's a pretty good capsule of what evangelical Christians in general believe, but there are plenty of non-evangelical Christians who dispute at least some of it, particularly the bit about the Bible being infallible and "of supreme and final authority." Those Christians rarely visit forums like this one, but I've seen them show up once in a while.

Splarnst · 05-30-2007, 01:34 PM

As I often do, I will comment on what I used to believe as a Catholic.

Quote:

The Bible to be the infallible Word of God, that it is His holy and inspired Word, and that it is of supreme and final authority.

No. The Church defined the canon, so the Bible cannot be the final authority.

Quote:

In one God, eternally existing in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Yep.

Quote:

Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took on Himself all our sins, died and rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.

Yep. I should add that right-hand is a metaphor.

Quote:

That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.

Yep.

Quote:

That Christ rose from the dead and is coming soon.

Yes to the first, no to the second. The Catholic Church takes the words of Jesus seriously about no one knowing the hour of his return. Catholics don't believe in the rapture at all. Protestants are far less "biblical" than Catholics in this and in some other things like divorce.

Quote:

In holy Christian living, and that we must have concern for the hurts and social needs of our fellowmen.

Yep. (This is basic altruism.)

Quote:

We must dedicate ourselves anew to the service of our Lord and to His authority over our lives.

Yep. (This is basic loyalty.)

Quote:

In using every modern means of communication available to us to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world.

This is not a complete thought. It's not a doctrinal belief, but just pragmatism.

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05-29-2007, 04:44 PM	#4
JamesBannon Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Paisley, Scotland Posts: 5,819	shrug not a Christian (obviously) but I don't see a reason to doubt that there was a historic Jesus something like that narrated in the gospels.

05-29-2007, 05:39 PM	#5
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	And yet historic Jesus remains an assumption with no actual historic person to pin it on. I don't find the half crucifixion convincing at all.

05-30-2007, 09:04 AM	#8
ELECTROGOD Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: GR, MI USA Posts: 4,009	If Billy believes that the Bible is the "infallible word of god" then he ought to check out these links that clearly show what a utterly FALLIBLE pile of crap it really is: http://www.members.aol.com/ckbloomfld http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...istencies.html http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...gan/intro.html

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