Astreja

No insult intended. They seemed more matters of personal faith rather than points I wanted to debate. However, if you'd prefer, I'll comment on them briefly.

- The Eucharist: Yes, I see the symbolism and understand the source in the Gospels. Rather than likening it to a video game, I see it as a form of sympathetic magic. I can appreciate that it has meaning for believers, but IMO it's reinforcing a rather primitive view of the world.

- Become like little children: I'm not sure that naïvété is the best path to follow in all cases. It's good to occasionally trust and open oneself to new possibilities, but there's a time and place for everything. The overall implication of this meme seems to be that intellect and maturity are inferior to child-like trust. I'm not convinced.

- Born again: Again, a symbolic thing that I can understand at an intellectual level. Similar to initiation into a group, casting away the old "you" and assuming a new one.

- Righteousness surpassing the Pharisees: :huh: I really don't have sufficient knowledge of how "righteous" the Pharisees actually were. I certainly don't see righteousness as some kind of competitive sport.

- Acknowledge Jesus: Go ahead, knock yourself out. Bear in mind that it almost certainly will offend some people; and there's nothing much you can do about their reactions.

Hold on a sec, I think we may be talking past each other.I read your statement in post #17 as "Do not prepare for the future," and I think that we should prepare for the future. I've found that it actually makes life in the present easier: Things that we know we've already dealt with do not weigh as heavy on our minds, and do not distract us as much..

And, personally, I don't care if the sun is going to go red giant on us in five billion years. Quality of life in the immediate future *is* within my control, and I am going to do my best to provide a comfortable and stimulating environment for myself and my immediate family.

As for "preparing to be a rotting corpse", that is simply not necessary. It happens regardless of one's state of preparedness, and I just don't worry about such issues.

Agreed. No major problem here.

Well, I think it's relevant. The principles of not killing and not stealing are, AFIAK, virtually universal among successful cultures. They recur everywhere because cultures that don't adhere to them tend to die out rather quickly.

This is correct. Some of the laws I consider morally repugnant; others are just fine.

I think I deserve as much as I can create using my own efforts without causing undue hardship to someone or something else. In my view of the universe, we can be gift-givers and recipients, not just recipients.

Neither do I deserve it less. But, even if he exists, isn't he supposed to be, you know, a god? What am I supposed to give, and why, and why not keep it for the benefit of myself and my family and friends?

burning flames

thanks steamer!

Gawen

That is correct.

LuisGarcia

This is the best summation of christi-inanity I think I've come across. Can I please use it on some other boards?

LuisGarcia (who thinks your signatory habit is also worth stealing, but who doesn't want to ask too much in one go)

Gawen

The glam tradition regarding Jesus makes it so extremely difficult to review his life and character with an unbiased mind. While theists differ regarding the divinity of Jesus, nearly all Christians and many non-Christians still cling to a preconceived notion of the perfection of Jesus. No other man is revered as all-loving, omniscient, faultless unparalleled model for mankind. This impeccability of Jesus is so firmly established that any insinuation of error on his part is deemed a blasphemy, more impious than mocking Yahweh himself. Yahweh; a God who destroyed thousands of his chosen people because their king took a census is too illogical for any but theists to worship. But the Son of God, or Son of man, is sacro-sanct. Jesus is reverenced as the one man who has lived unspotted by the world, free from human err, able to redeem mankind by his example. Respect for the principles of Jesus is so inbred in American people of all faiths that an attempt to disparage his worth is denounced as bad taste. The "heretic" is suspected of being immoral, regardless of the evidence he reveals or the how more or less convincing the evidence may be. In popular opinion Jesus never made a mistake; all his teachings were infallible; no other view is tolerated.

If Jesus is what followers believe, no arguments will destroy their faith . But if Jesus was not perfect, it is important that his status as God, or man, should be revised. When one questions or asserts that Jesus lacked supreme intelligence, the natural question asked by theists is, "How do YOU know? The answer is that we do not claim omniscience, but merely request everyone to use his or her own judgment, with intellectual honesty, examining each act or saying of Jesus without regard to presupposed ideas or tradition.

The significance of critical analysis lies in whatever changes would have to be made in religious thought if it should be found that Jesus was not perfect. If Jesus was in error concerning conditions of his own time and proclaimed no knowledge or prescience of our modern problems, his authority must be diminished. People should not not continue to worship a person whose conception of the physical and spiritual world was erroneous. If Jesus made mistakes, he is neither the Son of an Omni-max God nor an infallible human.

So these people you see today living "Everything they do is an extension of God's love and will: actions, thoughts, academic pursuits, desires, moral choices" have apologised their entire life worshiping what has been proved imperfect. They have evaded the Divine Imperfection for fear of losing faith in old traditions and the threat of eternal damnation. Their minds will not be receptive to changes in social conditions and if they are receptive to minor or controversial changes, they have found a particular passage, disregarding the others that may or may not contradict the passage or contradict their pursuit for happiness in the current world. In all cases, in my opinion, they are living a lie...one I choose not to live.

Gawen

That is evading the question. And begging as well. The question is, why must a believer sell everything to make himself poor to make the poor richer?

Well, you're a christian believer. Why must a believer be made to think he is committing cannibalism? The Jews could not understand what Jesus meant when he said: "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life."

Evading the question again. How, exactly, does one "become like little children?" Little children are ignorant. They have not the capability for critical thinking skills or reasoning ability. For example, many little children frequently believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy through blind faith. They are taking the word of their parents or loved ones in the existence of fairy tales we adults know to be false. Are we, as adults, supposed to take on this quality? Jesus does not really say, making this requirement extremely nebulous, but one may make their own conclusions.

That is about as clear as mud. But this is what Jesus says, and it contradicts all other scripture. But let's ignore the contradiction for a moment. Is this true? If we become like little children... in fact, if we regress all the way to infants by being "born again" of water and the Spirit, do we get to go to heaven? So far you're really refuting my arguments with slam-bang precision.

This is getting absurd, isn't it? Both in Jesus and your style of argumentation. Pharisees and scribes are adults, not children. But that is what Jesus says. Forget the "born again" stuff and becoming like children – you must become better than those that teach you. Our righteousness, and our adherence to the laws of the Old Testament, must exceed that of the Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The only thing killing me is your style of refutation. It leaves much to be desired and I believe it is now a waste of my time. But I continue in the hopes that you would answer a bit more within the confines of the questions.

Matt.6: 19: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal,
20: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal….
24: "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
25: "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Although Jesus in one instance calls for the love of enemies, at the end of the parable of ten pounds, he orders to slay his enemies that would deny his reign (Luke 19:12-27). Despite the commandment not to kill, Jesus accepts the killing of humans here.

Jesus often refers to his followers as his "flock of sheep" and he is the "good" shepherd, which is quite a contrast to killing those that did not want him to be King over them. This “good shepherd” moniker is actually a heritage from the Sumerians 3-2000 BC, from whom the Assyrians received it, and later again the Egyptian god Horus was called "the good Shepherd" long before Christ. Sheep are not considered to be among the brightest creatures on this planet, and thus the analogy should be condescending and insulting towards Christians. But to send his disciples forth "as sheep in the midst of wolves" like Jesus says (Mt. 10:16, Luke 10:3), is not what a "good" shepherd should do.

Absolutely not. See post below.


The next time someone tries to rape your SO while you watch, be sure to sit and watch like a good Christian...praying will help immensely.
Are you being paid for any work you do?

Same as Honour, below.

Matthew 6: 1: "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
He says to give alms in secret, pray in secret, fast in secret. If you let yourself be seen, so that men praise you for your piety, you have an earthly reward and will not get a heavenly one. He condemns the scribes and Pharisees for seeking honor among men, for making their piety a means of gaining earthly status. He says: "Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."

In short, and this applies to several of my list, if someone robs you or enslaves you or even kills you, that is their problem, not yours. You keep your eyes on the prize, which is Heaven. Do not let yourself be tempted into fighting for some piece of this Earth or someone on it.

Are you quiet when doing your acts of righteousness?


Obviously, the poor.

Sadly...no.
The “Golden Rule” had been around in different forms and in different cultures a long time before Jesus. The two formulations: “So whatever you wish that people would do to you, do so to them” (Matthew 7:12; Luke 6:31), or “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” are probably often thought of with Jesus, but he has unfortunately come to be remembered as its originator. Jesus is also credited with having been the originator of “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27) even though this was, in fact, an Old Testament idea which he borrowed (Leviticus 19:18).

But despite all of this, Jesus himself often did not follow these rules. Although he taught that people should love their enemies, he accorded much less than that to people who simply disagreed with him. He displayed barely concealed contempt for his gentile neighbors, equating them with “dogs” (Mark 7:27), and once instructing his disciples to “Go nowhere among the gentiles” (Matthew 10:5). He even refused to heal a gentile child until the child’s mother came up with a clever saying (Matthew 15:21-28).

Jesus spoke out specifically against anger: “Anyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment” (Matthew 5:22); in fact, the context here actually equates anger at a fellow follower of Jesus with killing or at least everlasting torment. So it would be reasonable to conclude that Jesus would not exhibit the anger to others which he would not want to receive. Can anyone imagine Jesus actually engaged in actions which are much like murder? No, but It is surprising, therefore, to find that, on several occasions, Jesus displayed anger.

Mark 11:12-14: The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13: Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14: Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Mark 11:15-16: On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves,
16: and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Are these the kinds of behaviour you expect from a thoughtful, rational, loving adult Son of God? No, it is the behaviour of a bigot and a racist. It was common practice for the priests to exchange money for Jews that came from other lands. The doves were purchased for sacrifice upon the alter in the temple. Jesus, being a Jew knew this. Surely the all-powerful son of God could come up with a better plan than knocking over tables in a one-time outburst. At any rate, the entire story makes no sense whatsoever

The dubious Old Testament concept of declaring the entire human population as depraved and sinful goes far to insure an inferiority complex, but this verse takes it to a lower level. To decrease one's earthly life for promoting an increase of a superstitious idea, in effect, declares humans as unworthy and valueless. Belief in universal sin and increasing the myth of Jesus above all human concerns must put this kind of worship as among the most insidious and depraved forms of human thought known to man.

You acknowledged them. But said nothing of consequence pertaining to them. Typical behaviour of many Christians.

All the above points in my list, which is not complete, pertain to achieving salvation. Are you doing things things for salvation? Any of them?

Gawen

A Christian rejects God because he does not follow Mosaic Law.

Sinless Life
Living a sinless life involves, among other things following the entire 613 Laws of Moses. The subject of Mosaic Law is for another paper, it must be briefly touched upon here.
Matthew 5:17-20: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20: For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16: 16-17: "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17: It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

In fact he goes further; we should not only follow the Law, we should over-fulfill it, seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
Matthew 5 explains this clearly. We should not only abstain from adultery but also from lust. We should not only abstain from killing but also from anger. The end is coming soon; we should practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and making peace with everyone. We should not only abstain from swearing false oaths, we should abstain from swearing oaths at all. The Law says "an eye for an eye", but Jesus says to abstain from retaliation; do not resist evil, turn the other cheek, do good to those that hate you.

He sums up the spirit of the law with the famous Two Greatest Commandments. Matthew 22: 36-40: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37: Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38: This is the first and greatest commandment. 39: And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40: All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
This is repeated in:
Luke 10: 25-28: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26: "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27: He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28: "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
In contrast with the Old Testament, Jesus does appear to give considerable thought to the issue of meta-ethics in Matthew 22 and Luke 10. His reply was, in context, conservative. Jesus' first commandment is actually the second line of the Shema, a passage from the Torah that priests recite in the Temple, and that other Jews recite (twice a day) in their prayers. The Pharisees, like most Jews, considered this to be the most important principle in Judaism. Jesus' second commandment echoes the principle of Hillel, one of the most important Pharisees in the decades prior to Jesus' birth. In short, Jesus answers the Pharisee by quoting the two most important Pharisaic principles.
Jesus continues his theme of over-fulfilling the law in:
Luke 6: 32-36: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33: And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34: And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35: But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36: Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Matthew 5:43-48: "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44: But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45: that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46: If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47: And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Nevertheless, he does say the letter is to be observed as well.
Matthew 23: 1-4: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3: So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4: They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

The major exception seems to be the dietary laws, which Jesus says to ignore.
Mark 7: 15-22: Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' " 17: After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18: "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19: For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20: He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21: For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22: greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.

This story is also in Matthew 15. It could be argued that this is a contradiction; he says not one iota of the law will ever become void, but he also says not to bother with ritual cleanliness of your food or your hands. According to the Jesus described in the Gospels, (Matthew 7: 1-5, Matthew 18: 20-21, Luke 6 and 17) our concern with the Law of Moses is supposed to be with obeying it ourselves, not with enforcing it on others. We should be concerned with purifying our own character, to perfection. Nevermind eating food with dirty hands, you’re all going to be dead soon anyway…or so it seems.

David B

Feel free.

David B (stole both)

tjakey

IF the Christian god existed I would have to reject it, a position I feel any thinking, compassionate person would have to take. In fact, as an ex-christian I did reject the god - it was quite a relief to discover that the god couldn't exist in the first place.

burning flames

how did you discover that he couldnt exist?