Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 05-18-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yeshua died at the same time the passover lamb was killed by the high priest in Jerusalem on the 14th of Nissan at 3:00 P.M.

Quote:

In Mark 14:12, it is written, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover [the Pesach lamb]...." The word translated as first is the Greek word protos, which means "before, earlier, and preceding." Because there was a temple (Beit HaMikdash) in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in the days of Yeshua, the First Seder would be on the fourteenth of Nisan, and the Second Seder on the fifteenth. The Seder could be held on either night. Yeshua had His Passover (Pesach) Seder by midnight on the fourteenth of Nisan (remember that the fourteenth of Nisan begins at sundown, which is roughly six hours prior to midnight), and was crucified the next afternoon at 3:00 p.m., which is still the fourteenth of Nisan.

The high priest (Cohen HaGadol) kills the Passover (Pesach) lamb for the nation of Israel at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan. At sundown, the fifteenth begins, so Yeshua would have to eat His Passover lamb by midnight of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is prior to the time that the high priest kills the Passover lamb for the nation. To further prove this, in John (Yochanan) 18:28, when Yeshua was brought before Pilate, Caiaphas the high priest (Cohen HaGadol) wouldn't enter the judgment hall of the Gentile ruler because he would be defiled and couldn't eat the Passover lamb. So, this event must have taken place on the morning of the fourteenth of Nisan because the high priest had not yet eaten the Passover. If he was defiled, he would be defiled for one day. Since Yeshua had already eaten the Passover by the time He was seized and taken before Caiaphas and Pilate, He had to have eaten the Passover with the disciples on the evening of the fourteenth. Thus, we can see how Yeshua ate a Passover meal and could still fulfill being the Passover Lamb of G-d by being killed at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan.
http://www.hebroots.org/chap3.html#CHAP3

And what year was that?

The year when the sun went dark for three hours on the 14th day of Nissan.

According to NASA such a year is yet to come.

Does the scriptures state the sun went dark due to a eclipse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Mark 15:33 -

Quote:

And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour

There was never ever a year with such a day on the 14th day of Nissan at 3.00 pm in the 1st century.

The following is a possible extrabiblical account of such an event by Thallus ,who wrote in the first century, which Sextus Julius Africanus refuted in the third century.

Quote:

. . on the whole world there pressed a fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason it seems to me. (Africanus, in Syncellus). .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian)

spamandham · 05-18-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The following is a possible extrabiblical account of such an event by Thallus ,who wrote in the first century, which Sextus Julius Africanus refuted in the third century.

Quote:

. . on the whole world there pressed a fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason it seems to me. (Africanus, in Syncellus). .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thallus_(historian)

Eclipses don't last 3 hours. Beside that, I understand it was commonplace to associate things such as earthquakes and eclipses into literature for dramatic effect. The audience would have known this.

Solo · 05-19-2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

What most of us in these Biblical threads are after, I would imagine, is to understand the early beginnings of Christianity. For myself, my interest has nothing at all to do with theological ideas and how they may have developed. I am more interested in a political take on things. Primarily, to put theology back in its box by having it removed from the social/political environment. One approach to this is to demonstrate that the core belief of Christianity - the symbol of the historically crucified saviour is mythology. Theology needs to be exposed for what it is - human imaginings. All very well if kept in a box....but dangerous when allowed to infiltrate a social environment. Christianity, with its claimed historical core of Jesus of Nazareth, is the theology with an Achilles Heel - a very vulnerable weak spot.

Think it possible that for the early X-ians personal was theological. The bipolar eschatology of their intellectual elite reflected the bipolar challenges the "sons of light" faced. Paul supplied the formula, e.g. in Rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death (i.e. the self-mortification in depression), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (euphoric grandeur of frank mania).

Since we are on the meaning of numbers in this thread:
the onset of mania (first hypermanic episode) appears to be constant in history. "Kristus Jahre" (Christ's years) has been the proverbial age of vulnerability and "mid-life crisis" in German since the Bible was translated by Luther.

Here is a statistic: according to American Journal of Psychiatry, Feb 2005 the mean age of onset of mania is
32.9 years.

Regards,
Jiri

maryhelena · 05-19-2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

What most of us in these Biblical threads are after, I would imagine, is to understand the early beginnings of Christianity. For myself, my interest has nothing at all to do with theological ideas and how they may have developed. I am more interested in a political take on things. Primarily, to put theology back in its box by having it removed from the social/political environment. One approach to this is to demonstrate that the core belief of Christianity - the symbol of the historically crucified saviour is mythology. Theology needs to be exposed for what it is - human imaginings. All very well if kept in a box....but dangerous when allowed to infiltrate a social environment. Christianity, with its claimed historical core of Jesus of Nazareth, is the theology with an Achilles Heel - a very vulnerable weak spot.

Think it possible that for the early X-ians personal was theological. The bipolar eschatology of their intellectual elite reflected the bipolar challenges the "sons of light" faced. Paul supplied the formula, e.g. in Rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death (i.e. the self-mortification in depression), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (euphoric grandeur of frank mania).

I'm not sure what your asking here....hence not sure how to respond....

Were the early Christians bipolar?
Goodness knows.....

I suppose one could interpret Rom 6:23 in some sort of psychological sense - but is not that the trouble with theological ideas - they are open to various interpretations! Hence, one man's take is another man's error...

Quote:

Since we are on the meaning of numbers in this thread:
the onset of mania (first hypermanic episode) appears to be constant in history. "Kristus Jahre" (Christ's years) has been the proverbial age of vulnerability and "mid-life crisis" in German since the Bible was translated by Luther.

Here is a statistic: according to American Journal of Psychiatry, Feb 2005 the mean age of onset of mania is
32.9 years.

Regards,
Jiri

I don't think we are on to the meaning of numbers in this thread - not from me anyway - all I have been doing is pointing out where number symbolism looks to have been used. What actual numbers 'mean' - I've no idea.....and no real interest either....

The "mean age of onset of mania is 32.9 years" - looks like I'm way clear on that account....

Solo · 05-19-2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

The "mean age of onset of mania is 32.9 years" - looks like I'm way clear on that account....

Swedenborg was hit in mid-fifties ! Don't lose hope !

Jiri

AtheistGamer · 05-19-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Instead, the crucifixion is set a symbolic 40 years prior to the destruction of the temple. This is unlikely if the crucifixion were a historical event.

How's that symbolic?

bacht · 05-20-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

What most of us in these Biblical threads are after, I would imagine, is to understand the early beginnings of Christianity. For myself, my interest has nothing at all to do with theological ideas and how they may have developed. I am more interested in a political take on things. Primarily, to put theology back in its box by having it removed from the social/political environment. One approach to this is to demonstrate that the core belief of Christianity - the symbol of the historically crucified saviour is mythology. Theology needs to be exposed for what it is - human imaginings. All very well if kept in a box....but dangerous when allowed to infiltrate a social environment. Christianity, with its claimed historical core of Jesus of Nazareth, is the theology with an Achilles Heel - a very vulnerable weak spot.

You seem like a reasonable person Mary. I suspect it would've been difficult to separate religious belief from political policy before modern times. Even today it's not so easy (try debating abortion or evolution).

Deeply religious people may not be able to detach themselves enough to see how their ideas impact others. We're all capable of this weakness, but maybe theology makes it worse (?)

show_no_mercy · 05-20-2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtheistGamer

Quote:

Instead, the crucifixion is set a symbolic 40 years prior to the destruction of the temple. This is unlikely if the crucifixion were a historical event.

How's that symbolic?

http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...4&postcount=11

One generation in the Bible is 40 years.

maryhelena · 05-20-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

What most of us in these Biblical threads are after, I would imagine, is to understand the early beginnings of Christianity. For myself, my interest has nothing at all to do with theological ideas and how they may have developed. I am more interested in a political take on things. Primarily, to put theology back in its box by having it removed from the social/political environment. One approach to this is to demonstrate that the core belief of Christianity - the symbol of the historically crucified saviour is mythology. Theology needs to be exposed for what it is - human imaginings. All very well if kept in a box....but dangerous when allowed to infiltrate a social environment. Christianity, with its claimed historical core of Jesus of Nazareth, is the theology with an Achilles Heel - a very vulnerable weak spot.

You seem like a reasonable person Mary. I suspect it would've been difficult to separate religious belief from political policy before modern times. Even today it's not so easy (try debating abortion or evolution).

Deeply religious people may not be able to detach themselves enough to see how their ideas impact others. We're all capable of this weakness, but maybe theology makes it worse (?)

Indeed, religion and politics have been entwined for a very long time - and, as you say, religious ideas still try to make themselves felt in the social/political arena. I personally don't think that religion is ever going to fade away - one god gets knocked down and another will spring up - that's the way its always been! All one can really hope for is that somehow or another it gets to be kept in check. People can't be stopped from thinking about god ideas - but should not be allowed to translate these ideas into a social/political environment that would seek to impose these ideas on to others who do not share these views. Not all of our intellectual furniture is suitable for our physical home.....

Whatever one thinks of attitude of our modern day 'militant atheists' - at least the more atheists that come out of the closet and make themselves heard - the better the chances that theology meets its comeuppance....

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